Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
|
| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
They point out the importance of correct faith. Or do you think they support believing in heresies?
nor do they support Catholic doctrine.
Sure they do: the necessity of faith for salvation is a Catholic doctrine.
No he wanted to worship Barnabas and Paul (Acts 14:10-18, not Peter), and they said that they were mortal, e.g. possibly a saint but not a god.
no reference of prayers to saints in Revelation...There is one reference about 24 elders having in their possession some prayers
Read, Iscool. You don't sound too old; you can still learn what the Bible says.
And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints [προσευχαι των αγιων] (Rev. 5:8)
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints [προσευχαις των αγιων παντων] upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints [προσευχαις των αγιων] ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Rev. 8:3-4)
If your mickey mouse "translation" says something different, toss it away and get a real Bible.
Don’t be silly. Baptism is in water.
For veneration of them so that you be like them and possibly be saved, too.
go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me
The gospel has many examples of rich people giving their wealth away and joining Jesus in poverty; none where the rich man remains rich and is praised. A rich man must end his days in a monastery if he wants to be saved.
Superstition is the episode with Manoah who thinks that angel is God and that he will be struck dead now that he saw him. Yeah, otherwise you understood me correctly: the prohibition on contact with the dead was given the Jews and that answers the question why Jews did not venerate at least their obvious saints like Moses or Elijah. It took the Transfiguration miracle worked by Jesus to teach Christians veneration of saints.
Another typical Roman Catholic statement in error, without foundation and completely without a Scriptural basis...
Job 42: ...7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.
10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before. 11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought on him, and each one gave him a piece of silver[a] and a gold ring.
12 The Lord blessed the latter part of Job’s life more than the former part. He had fourteen thousand sheep, six thousand camels, a thousand yoke of oxen and a thousand donkeys. 13 And he also had seven sons and three daughters. 14 The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah and the third Keren-Happuch. 15 Nowhere in all the land were there found women as beautiful as Job’s daughters, and their father granted them an inheritance along with their brothers.
16 After this, Job lived a hundred and forty years; he saw his children and their children to the fourth generation. 17 And so Job died, an old man and full of years.
Christ is one Mediator, intercessors are numerous. Read:
What is wrong with RC minds? Do you see the word "Heavenly" or do you have to once again misrepresent what i said in desperately trying to defend PTDS?
All that you have is arguments from silence
Dude, you already engaged in this misrepresentation and was corrected, yet you resort to it again, as the rest of the statement says,
and egregious extrapolations that at best might allow some of it as speculation...
I have dealt with both.
These are arguments form the Holy Scripture and logic, not from "silence".
And again, as said and described, this is indeed the problem, that of seeing support needed for this as doctrine, which is not there.
so then this is an example of a prayer to a saint being efficacious in heaven.
No, as they are not shown praying, but engaging in offering up prayers as incense, evidently after the OT memorial sense, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) as shown.
This explains the lack of any prayers to angels in the OT?
This explains the lack of any prayers to angels in the OT?
Not only, but angels as well, which you imaginatively attempted to explain away.
But the necromancy clause is a reflection of the Hebrew mentality in general that teaches that God is inaccessible through ordinary people and cannot be imitated by them.
Incredible. So necromancy is forbidden because God is inaccessible through ordinary people, even though it is cleary shown that He is, rather than praying to someone else in Heaven but the Lord - which requires attributes only shown belonging to God (the ability to both hear and respond to almost incessant amounts of prayer addressed to them) - being idolatrous, or conducive to it.
That knowledge is what makes us Christians rather than Jews.
It is not that Heaven was basically closed to ordinary people, for "to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word." (Isaiah 66:2) and "He forgetteth not the cry of the humble" (Ps. 9:12) - no matter who they are.
But though such could be saved (with difficulty) under the rubric of the atonement, they could not enter God's abode in glory till the Resurrection of Christ. Into which believers under the new and better covenant of more grace, have boldness to enter by the blood of Jesus, having no other Heavenly intercessor but Him.
The fear of seeing God is clear, for example, in the episode with Manoah and his wife actually praying to an angel without realizing it, then Manoah (not his wife) recoiling in superstitious horror (Judges 13) [And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God." (Judges 13:22)].
Wrong again. Manoah would have known that Moses and the 70 elders saw God, (Ex. 24:9) but God still is dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen." (1 Timothy 6:16)
As now, they knew no mortal on earth today could see God and live, and thus their fear, while as David expressed,
"Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore." (Psalms 16:11)
Thanks be to God.
Again, your best argument is to stay silent, and more correction of your imaginative attempts is hardly needful. Bye.
Eventually that often becomes the case, having "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" (2 Timothy 2:25)
While they condemn former RCs who know both doctrinally and experimentally the errors of Rome, their attempts to defend their cherished traditions by Scripture further repel those who honestly search the Scriptures whether such are so, with a heart to obey what it teaches, which manifestly is not PTDS.
You must be x-tra special cause all the rest of the Catholics need the Magisterium to interpret the bible for them...
Sufficiently put. But perhaps you get an indulgence for such indulgent posting defending the object of their devotions, or gain some degree of warrant for a book.
Well apparently you are too old...
And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints [προσευχαι των αγιων] (Rev. 5:8)
There is absolutely nothing in that verse that says anyone prayed to 24 elders...Nothing...You are making it up...
It says they are in possession of prayers, NOT that the prayer were addressed to them...
And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints [προσευχαις των αγιων παντων] upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints [προσευχαις των αγιων] ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Rev. 8:3-4)
Again, prayers in the possession of angels (NOT SAINTS...Angels are not saints)...And the prayers went from the angels to God bypassing any elders...The verses don't even mention saints in heaven to receive prayers...
You have to leave out the words that are not there...
Water baptism is in water...Spiritual baptism is in the Spirit, no water involved...And you know how you can tell they are different??? They are not spelled the same...
Act_1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost (not water) not many days hence.
If water means baptize (which it doesn't), you got a real mess going on with that verse...
Explain the veneration that took place at the Transfiguration...
No, Catholics do not need anyone to interpret the Holy Bible for them. Yes, every Catholic is very special.I must be special! I can interpret Scripture, being a former RC. I was "baptized" as a baby.You must be x-tra special cause all the rest of the Catholics need the Magisterium to interpret the bible for them...
;)
No, bkaycee, you cannot be special. You took the Short Bus out of the RCC. So YOU, bkaycee, are known as one of those who "COULDA' BEEN SPECIAL BUT WOULDN'T TOE THE LINE" people who are forever "ANATHEMIZED" and shunned. I'm so sorry to be the one to break the news, but be on your bad way. Your Bus is waiting...
Funny, how while relying wholly on Christ for my forgiveness and Salvation BUT, not submitting to the Pope / RCC or strange dogmas condemns me (in their eyes)
AND "good" ATHEISTS can still get to heaven along with other "good" non Catholics.
Selective Condemnation. Imagine, Ted Kennedy made it and you didn’t...What a pathetic, twisted perversion of God’s Word to humanity that institution is. I thank God He reveals Himself to you and others like you who are “trapped” there and may not realize it yet. Breathe deeply, FRiend, the air is pure outside those walls! Regards, smvoice
Good catch......
Keep up all your good works of the LAW sorry - LOVE.
Then, perhaps, maybe, possibly; you will be saved as well.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.