Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[jodyel]

Wow, I simply am awestruck at your blindness.

Continue on in your blindness, annalex. It is clear you desire religion and dogma above Jesus as most Catholics do.

I won’t be answering anything else from you.

[jodyel]

I leave this foolish person to you, guys.

Some people are just not worth the breath it takes to rebuke them.

[annalex]

real evidence of another Heavenly intercessor btwn man and God save for Christ

Christ is one Mediator, intercessors are numerous. Read:

[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2)

All that you have is arguments from silence

• Christ gave his saints life everlasting;
• Life of a saint is superabundant, similar to angel and have miraculous qualities ours yet doesn't;
• We are instructed to pray as a community
• We are instructed to pray one for another.

These are arguments form the Holy Scripture and logic, not from "silence". It is a good idea to read what you want to object to, first. I explained this part to you multiple times.

i never said that could not pray

so then this is an example of a prayer to a saint being efficacious in heaven.

This explains the lack of any prayers to angels in the OT?

No, it explains a lack of prayers for example, to Elijah, or other prophets that passed on. But the necromancy clause is a reflection of the Hebrew mentality in general that teaches that God is inaccessible through ordinary people and cannot be imitated by them. That knowledge is what makes us Christians rather than Jews. The fear of seeing God is clear, for example, in the episode with Manoah and his wife actually praying to an angel without realizing it, then Manoah (not his wife) recoiling in superstitious horror (Judges 13).

[annalex]

Thank you. This is why I am here.

[annalex]

:)

[Iscool]

"If he will not listen to the Church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

If that was a legitimate verse it would have to read like this:

If He Will Not Listen To The Church, Treat Him As A Pagan Or Tax Collector...

[Iscool]

I don't need an interpreter, especially a charlatan of Protestant persuasion, thanks. I am Catholic.

Every other Catholic on these thread seems to think he/she needs an interpreter...Are you special???

[metmom]

Those verses say nothing about Catholicism nor do they support Catholic doctrine.

[Iscool]

Veneration of saints is a logical extension of biblical principles of supernatural ability of saints, reality of eternal live,

Logical extension??? Hardly, it's an abomination...After Peter drug up the prone fella who wanted to venerate him, Peter grabbed him by the collar with the other hand cocked and said, ' next time you want to lay down in from of me, I'll put you there'...Fact is, it is extremely illogical and unbiblical...

There is no direct example of praying to saints in the Bible because a robust communion of saints and Catholic Christians hasn't grown yet, in the New Testament's historical scope, enough to make such anecdote likely.

This is nothing other than a fairy tale...

Indirect reference to prayer to saints is in Revelation where these prayers are delivered to the Eucharistic Christ by the very saints we pray to.

There is no reference of prayers to saints in Revelation...There is one reference about 24 elders having in their possession some prayers but nothing is said about prayers to them...

The other two references are to prayers carried by angels and delivered directly to God...

It hasn't been revealed to anyone including any one in your religion what those things represent...

Many non Catholics, myself included are convinced (by scripture) that those prayers take place during the Great Tribulation where the Holy Spirit is not available to those on the earth to have direct access to God...

It is the epitome' of foolishness to cling to obscure scripture that you have to invent theology to make sense of it in light of clear, plain scripture that is written for the Spirit indwelt Christian...

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

We have access unto the Father by the Holy Spirit...Clear, plain, simple...

[Iscool]

In John 3:3-5 we see how baptism is birth

Baptism is not spelled w a t e r ...There is no baptism in that verse...

[Elsie]

Quite simply, if the belief is not Catholic then something was either removed from it or added.

Quite simply, if the belief IS Catholic then quite possibly something was added that is NOT found in Scripture.

[Elsie]

...because nothing is taken away from my faith and nothing added.

Yeah...

Sure...

[Elsie]

I just read what is written, without the help of your charlatan theologians.

I just read what is written, without the help of a group of faceless men who vote to see if the majority interpretation of Scripture is pronounced infallible or not.

[Elsie]

Saints are not gods.

Then what they good for?

[Elsie]

... we are not supposed to take the Holy Eucharist more than twice in a day...

Why not?

We KNOW what Hillary would say!!!

[Elsie]

Keep on eatin’ that body and drinkin’ that blood.

[boatbums]

The servant is no greater than his master, and RCs often example an arrogance that flows from Rome decreeing something is true as she cannot be wrong, and then attempts to wrest support from Scripture when in fact it is not needed. Scripture is treated as something that must submit to Rome, and thus is treated as something which can be contrived to support Rome as needed.

That becomes quite evident with the way the wording of some verses are changed to say something the verse really doesn't say - even to the point where "their" version makes no sense or contradicts other Scripture. "Contrived" is a very good way to describe this wresting of the word of God. It is something Peter warned that those who were unlearned and unstable would try to do.

[boatbums]

should we presume you believe that Jesus really said a rich man can never be saved?

Don't presume anything. I am here. Ask. No, He did not say "never", He said it is very difficult. Read the Holy Bible every once in a while.

So, now you admit that a rich person can be saved after all but that it is "very difficult" (exactly what I said)? Not too many posts ago you stated, "Yeah, like a eye of a needle "can impede" a camel squeezing through.".

It would be nice if you could keep track of your written thoughts better so you don't have to backtrack or contradict what you said previously. You accuse others of failing to read the Bible, yet THIS particular tack came about because of your own lack of Biblical knowledge of Jesus' words. Do you ever admit you are wrong?

[boatbums]

This explains the lack of any prayers to angels in the OT?

No, it explains a lack of prayers for example, to Elijah, or other prophets that passed on. But the necromancy clause is a reflection of the Hebrew mentality in general that teaches that God is inaccessible through ordinary people and cannot be imitated by them. That knowledge is what makes us Christians rather than Jews. The fear of seeing God is clear, for example, in the episode with Manoah and his wife actually praying to an angel without realizing it, then Manoah (not his wife) recoiling in superstitious horror (Judges 13).

The Jews did not seek communication with the dead because Almighty God COMMANDED them not to. It had nothing to do with superstition or a "Hebrew mentality in general". Like Daniel1212 keeps pointing out, your allusions to having arguments from Scripture are illusions.

[annalex]

No, Catholics do not need anyone to interpret the Holy Bible for them. Yes, every Catholic is very special.