Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
You tell me, for....
"If they won't LISTEN to the Church...
Does YOUR Scripture really CAPTIALIZE church?
Salvation by grace alone, through two gifts of God: faith and charity, is no contradiction, it is what the Scripture teaches. Works are by grace also (Eph 2:10).
Says the person who just posted: Neither James 2, Titus 3, nor Ephesians 2 say anything like that.
LOL. Well, I suppose the Quran has some information as well. Good luck.
To a Catholic believer.
Exactly the problem. There being no clear command not to pray to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord - though that is all that is exampled and instructed - believers praying for each other on earth, and saints being special class of believers (though "saint" is broadly used for all believers), whose prayers are more efficacious (which examples only ever refer to prayers of a believers on earth) who are like angels (in the resurrection, and contextually referring to not marrying), and judging angels, and having abundant life;
is made to translate into a special class of believers being in Heaven being able to not only hear and respond to virtually unlimited amounts of prayer, but that believers on earth are to address them in prayer.
But that they even hear all such prayers is speculation at best, while all the examples and descriptions which the Holy Spirit abundantly provides of believer's inspired prayers, and in instruction on who prayer to Heaven is to be addressed, only consists of prayer being addressed to the Lord therein.
To whom (again) the Spirit Himself in believers prays directly to, and to whom believers have immediate access, thru the blood of the only Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who is uniquely qualified and able to be so, and ever lives to do so as the immediately accessible high priest of believers.
The only exception is that of pagans, which extraScriptural PTDS was influenced by.
Attempts to justify PTDS relies on arguments from silence and attempts at extrapolation,
Besides, where is the apology for calling my arguments "from silence"?
Why do you not apologize for once again misrepresenting what i said which was not simply that the RC polemic relied on arguments from silence (what is not forbidden but never exampled but could exist), but also attempts at extrapolation (that it could and does take place), which attempts manifestly does include you.
While as said, it may likewise be speculated that believers may be able to travel back and forth btwn planets, this lacks warrant as doctrine, and no doctrine, esp of such a basic practice, must rely on such arguments from silence and extrapolation when so much is written on it ..
Either the Holy Spirit did not consider praying to someone else in Heaven bu the Lord important enough to example or teach in His specific instructions, or Scripture is not the supreme authority but Rome is, which can channel her amorphous oral tradition into doctrine, and claim Scripture does not contradict it (she being the incontrovertible judge of that).
Which leaves her apologists trying to devise support from Scripture for them (in condescension to evangelicals), but which only exposes the lack thereof and odious polemical lengths RCAs feel free to engage, and the arrogance of Rome. Thus as said, your best argument is from silence, that is to stay silent trying to support PTDS from Scripture, and to argue Rome is a law unto herself, beyond even civil law in which you hold she is.<
While you CAN 'defend' all of the Catholic additions to 'worship'; that are NOT found in the LETTER in Acts 15; by the writings of the Holy Fathers.
Good grief. Like I care what one Protestant shyster wrote for others to repeat. The words of Christ and His Holy Apostles are sufficient for me, in James 2, in Matthew 19, or in any scripture. I don't need an interpreter, especially a charlatan of Protestant persuasion, thanks. I am Catholic.
Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? (James 2:24)
[4] But God, (who is rich in mercy,) for his exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, [5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together in Christ, (by whose grace you are saved,)[6] And hath raised us up together, and hath made us sit together in the heavenly places, through Christ Jesus. [7] That he might shew in the ages to come the abundant riches of his grace, in his bounty towards us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; [9] Not of works, that no man may glory. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Eph. 2)
[1] Admonish them to be subject to princes and powers, to obey at a word, to be ready to every good work. [2] To speak evil of no man, not to be litigious, but gentle: shewing all mildness towards all men. [3] For we ourselves also were some time unwise, incredulous, erring, slaves to divers desires and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. [4] But when the goodness and kindness of God our Saviour appeared: [5] Not by the works of justice, which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us, by the laver of regeneration, and renovation of the Holy Ghost; [6] Whom he hath poured forth upon us abundantly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour: [7] That, being justified by his grace, we may be heirs, according to hope of life everlasting. [8] It is a faithful saying: and these things I will have thee affirm constantly: that they, who believe in God, may be careful to excel in good works. (Titus 3)
This is the phase: “I will play dumb and complain when you are rude to me”.
What is that? English and Latin have the same alphabet.
Greek alphabet has two letters for "e", two letters of "o" and multiple unusual diphthongs, that makes transliterated Greek incomprehensible. It always amuses me how people wade through it, and having done so want to torture others..
But of course. Catholic faith is the work of God sufficient for our salvation, because is includes "works of love, done out of love for Christ and man". Protestant castrated faith, however, isn't.
Yep, that Scripture stuff is really crude, isn't it?
You have it sincerely offered to discuss things with me! All you have offered is your love for the Catholic Church and working to earn your salvation.
Circumcision is a ritual requirement of Judaism. Paul wrote to the Roman church about it, also. But, being true to your posting history on these threads, you'll just pick something out of your catechism which denies the truths of God's word. The Jews are God's chosen people and Jesus came through that people. But, he came to save us all from the penalties of sin, not to condemn us. Everything that you post comes from another world. It certainly doesn't apply to the one that God has established on this earth.
When you have something to really make a defense of the error and man-made requirements of your “religion”, get back to me with something other than the rote of your group. Please do not continue to misinterpret and misstate Gods Holy Scriptures. It will be to your peril, not mine. I am a Christian. I have been declared to be a son of God, a little brother if you will, grafted into his family by faith and guaranteed by his gift to me of his Holy Spirit. For ever and ever, amen.
You can enjoy your idols...
Romans 2 28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.
Colossisians 2: 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins...
Esp as regards the Mary of Catholicism, "the source of life for everyone," and can even be a more immediate recourse for help than Christ, with no grace which she cannot dispose of as her own, etc.
Parse this jumble of negatives, please, since you express your feeling hurt and misunderstood.
Veneration of saints is a logical extension of biblical principles of supernatural ability of saints, reality of eternal live, and Christ's command to pray in community. There is no direct example of praying to saints in the Bible because a robust communion of saints and Catholic Christians hasn't grown yet, in the New Testament's historical scope, enough to make such anecdote likely. The Old Testament period of course, has people groaning under the Hebrew law that would probably brand such piety necromancy. Indirect reference to prayer to saints is in Revelation where these prayers are delivered to the Eucharistic Christ by the very saints we pray to.
Another poster, with beautiful Catholic scripture attached to it. Thanks for the scripture, and amen.
Prove that means the Roman Catholic church.
annalex:To a Catholic believer.
Is that in the Greek as well?
Please show us by providing a link to the documentation.
Please show from Scripture that the works referred to by James have the qualifications which have been attached to them by the Catholic church.
Where is that phrase found in the Greek Scripture.
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