Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Sure it does if you subscribe to the biblical principles I enumerated in my previous post.
Besides, where is the apology for calling my arguments "from silence"?
Quite possibly. Also more and more Catholic.
Now, the text shows otherwise. Yes, I prefer referring to the original Greek, I can barely understand the idiotic mumbo-jumbo that passes for "transliterated Greek"
None singled out the living saints either. When a prayer to a saint is a natural act, no one needs to explain what the saint is and where. We just pray.
Nothing personally against Daniel, other than you guys are merely in error but he is in apostasy being a former Catholic. The Protestant method consists of two things: Posting heaps of scripture unrelated to the issue being discussed or posting dissertations "explaining" how a particular passage in the Holy Scripture does not say what it plainly says. I love reading all scripture, and I have nothing against the Holy Scripture posted to me, but it does not move the argument because invariably the poster does not understand what he is posting. As to the second type of argument, I am not interested, nor should anyone. I know that you guys are skilled in bypassing any scripture you don't like; this kind of charlatanism does not deserve any attention.
“to believe in the one he has sent” means being Catholic and have a complete faith, not fragments of it.
Me too; this is why I want everyone to be Catholic and know Christ like Catholics do.
Hahahahahahahaaaaa! More banality and ignorance!!!
Romans 8: ... 5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. ...
Neither James 2, Titus 3, nor Ephesians 2 say anything like that. They list two things necessary for salvation: faith and good works.
Yeah, like a eye of a needle "can impede" a camel squeezing through. Nice knowledge of the scripture, again.
Be my guest. Many tried. Now it is your turn.
1. the Catholic Church does not teach that works of any law are necessary for salvation. It teaches that works of love, done out of love fro Christ and man, are necessary for salvation.
2. The Catholic Church does not teach that faith is not necessary for salvation. The Church teaches that complete Catholic faith, without missing parts, and including good works is necessary for Salvation.
3. The Catholic Church believes and teaches that we are saved by grace of Christ alone.
You are posting for me great Catholic scripture that my Church has no argument with.
My turn? I already posted Paul's words to the Galatians which directly refutes all you said. But, the indoctrination which you have apparently allowed to confuse your mind and ignore God's word has overwhelmed any attempt we may offer of God's truth. It is as clear as an open mind can understand. But to a Roman Catholic, black is often white, and the sky really isn't blue.
Run along now and skip rope with your priest before you get hung with it. I don't take turns at presenting Scripture to refute heresies and error positioned by the Roman Catholic to deceive. I allow the Holy Spirit to work through me and present the word of God. That is like any Christian is called to do. Catholics just want to preach Catholicism! Most posts from the Roman Catholics on these threads are anathema to everything Christ represents. That philosophy comes only from a natural mind and stands completely alone from God's plan of salvation.
Luke 17: 7 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
He fainted.
It’s the predestination (the very thing that *Prots* are condemned and castigated for) vs. free will debate.
So apparently some Catholics believe that we are predestined to have free will.
You’re contradicting your very own words. Salvation by grace alone except when it isn’t cause you have to do the works the Catholic church tells you.
I do not see that from you, annalex.
I see that you want people to know Catholicism and not for people to be born again of the Spirit.
One does not need the Catholic religion to know Jesus, but your eyes have not been opened to that revelation yet. Until such time as God wills your understanding you will continue to labor under the false assumption that one must be a member of the Catholic church in order to know Jesus.
Nothing could be further from the truth and I am living proof. And I do not say that to brag in any way. It is just a statement of truth and fact. It is true of all who have been born again and filled with the Spirit.
None but a Catholic would ever read into Scripture that we are to pray to dead people. It has been inculcated into the hearts and minds of Catholics for centuries and only breaking away from that mindset and being born again will change that. The Holy Spirit brings all wisdom to a believer that He has indwelt.
Sigh...I certainly do try to remain as respectful as possible with those whom I interact on these forums. It seems, however, that you are gleeful whenever you can presume ignorance and spike the proverbial ball concerning your own perceived superior knowledge. Try leaving the sarcasm, condescension and belittling off your comments if you expect to be taken seriously or respected at all. For someone writing a book and utilizing Free Republic to aid you in your advertising and distribution, you should not forget that EVERYONE can read your comments and come to a conclusion about your character, or lack thereof.
WRT the rich man and the eye of the needle/camel parable that Jesus gave, you should understand that Jesus did NOT say it was impossible for those who have material wealth to be saved.
In fact, Matthew 19:24. - It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, etc. This is a strong hyperbolic proverbial expression to represent anything that is very difficult to do. Dr. John Lightfoot, in his Hebrew exercitations upon St. Matthew's Gospel (vol. 2 p. 219). He quotes instances from the rabbinical writings of a very similar phrase intended to represent something that is possible. For example, he quotes one rabbi disputing with another, who says, "Perhaps thou art one of those who can make an elephant pass through the eye of a needle; that is, "who speak things that are impossible.' St. Jerome says," It is not the absolute impossibility of the thing which is set forth, but the infrequency of it." (Pulpit Commentary). There is also an interpretation that speaks of "It has been thought the reference here was to a postern door set in a gate of Jerusalem." (Scofield's Notes)
Also, from the Pulpit Commentary, "This simile, taken in its plain and obvious sense, appears to many an exaggerated one, and various explanations have been suggested to soften it down. The best is found in Lord Nugent's 'Lands Classical and Sacred,' who mentions that in some modern Syrian towns the narrow gate for foot-passengers at the side of the larger gate by which wagons, camels, and other beasts of burden enter the city, is known as the "needle's eye." It is, however, very uncertain whether this term for the little gate was known in ancient times. But the simile was evidently a common one among the Jews. The Talmud, for instance, gives us the parallel phrase of an elephant passing through a needle's eye. The Koran repeats the very words of the Gospel. it is the object of the proverb to express human impossibility.
What you have failed to acknowledge, in your vain attempt to portray yourself as "knowledgeable" about Scripture and to defend your false idea that NO rich people can be saved, is that Jesus went further after he gave that parable, he said:
Matthew 19:25-26
When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
No one is outside of the saving grace of God. Though material wealth can be a handicap to surrendering ones life to Jesus Christ, having wealth is hardly something God condemns, in fact, He blessed many people with it and there are ample narratives in Scripture that prove it. Is there nothing that you won't argue about?
You keep repeating that as if saying it enough times makes it true. How about we take it a step further...you show WHERE in James 2, Titus 3 and Ephesians 2 that say that the two things necessary for salvation is faith and good works. Go ahead, post the plain and clear verses that you insist say that.
The ONLY one that could even come close is that one in James.
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