Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
However; I know of NO instance where this has EVER been done; not even by JS who came up with it.
Quite simply, if the belief is not Catholic then something was either removed from it or added. Catholic, remember, means complete and universal.
... have just one qualification: they are the works of Catholic faith, because nothing is taken away from my faith and nothing added.
Thank you for posting these beautiful verses that teach how important Catholic faith is. I, too, praise it every chance I get.
That is what the Catholic Church teaches and I believe.
So who is making arguments of void here? I said that veneration of saints follows logically from all-agreed precepts of Christianity, not that such an example is listed. It is a good idea to understand the argument before opining against it.
extremes
What "extremes"? The Old Testament contains a clause against necromancy, does it not?
which are the prayers of saints must mean...
It must mean they are prayers of saints, the ones you think can't pray.
About the same amount one has to make love to his wife to merit the standing of her husband.
I just read what is written, without the help of your charlatan theologians.
Don't presume anything. I am here. Ask. No, He did not say "never", He said it is very difficult. Read the Holy Bible every once in a while.
Saints are not gods. It is generally a good idea to figure out what is it that you find objectionable, then object.
annalex, I was reading something today that made a good point. And I would like to ask you about it. If the eucharist is taken as often as can be taken, to partake of the body of Christ, as an outward sign of salvation, then why isn’t baptism performed as often as can be, as an outward sign of that same salvation?
Baptism is our second birth, and the Eucharist is our spiritual meal. Since there is but one Spirit, there cannot be two baptisms. The Eucharist is the sustenance that you take as you go through life as it builds the Christ's presence in you so that you may walk with Him. You receive the Eucharist generally speaking as needed, just like regular meals.
In John 3:3-5 we see how baptism is birth, and in "as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice" (1 Cor. 11:26) especially, but also in the direct explanation that "my flesh is meat indeed" (John 6:56) we see that the Eucharist is meal.
Thanks for your reply. THe interesting argument in it was that both the Eucharist and baptism are taught as necessary processes of salvation. Yet one is performed as often as desired, and the other is performed only once. You don’t find that odd?
I want to add that baptism is taught to be for the remission of sins. When a person sins after he is baptized why isn’t he baptized again, for remission of those sins? And so on, through his life. Just like he partakes of the Eucharist as part of his salvation process.
Catholics just treat them like the gods of the pagans they replaced right?
Indeed there is no example out of all the abundance of material the Holy Spirit provided on prayer, or instructions on who do address in prayer to Heaven, and despite it being such a normative practice in Catholic "Christianity." Nor is there any real evidence of another Heavenly intercessor btwn man and God save for Christ, or that believers have anything less than direct access to God, or that only a certain class of believers are saints in Heaven, and who personally hear and respond to almost infinite amounts of prayer.
What i "understand" is that you have no argument that would justify this as doctrine, even if the Roman mindmeld prevents you from seeing that. All that you have is arguments from silence and egregious extrapolations that at best might allow some of it as speculation,
It must mean they are prayers of saints, the ones you think can't pray.
Again you are unapologetically misrepresenting what i said, as i never said that could not pray, such as asking God how long before justice comes, in contrast to being constantly personally addressed and responding, or which we can be sure the Holy Spirit would example and teach it.
What "extremes"? The Old Testament contains a clause against necromancy, does it not?
Are you for real? This explains the lack of any prayers to angels in the OT? I really do not think there is much warrant for you further exposing yourself with such absurdity. Bye. Again.
“if the belief is not Catholic then something was either removed from it or added.”
Hand, meet forehead.
The Eucharist does not itself remove sin. That happens at absolution if that is the result of a sacramental confession. So, typically, the adult believer falls to sin and needs to go to confession; his sin is absolved (if his disposition is contrite) and then he needs the Eucharist to give him strength to withstand future temptations. Of course it is not just the Hoyl Communion alone, but the prayers, the readings and the homily all help ongoing conversion of a Catholic Christian. Since Satan is busy and life is long, most of us need the Eucharist weekly if not daily.
No we don't treat the saints like gods. To God we serve the Sacrifice of the Mass. With saints we talk.
OK. Thanks for your replies. You know we don’t agree, but I do like your input from the RCC side of the argument.
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