Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[annalex]

Actually, I don’t “think”. I know what the Holy Church teaches and I explain it.

[smvoice]

Actually, I wasn’t talking about knowing what the “Holy Church teaches”. I was talking about what God’s Word teaches..

[CynicalBear]

>>However, the fact remains that they were to present their dispute "before the saints", so therefore at the time of Paul's speaking they were not among the saints capable of judging.<<

Where in the world do you get that? In no way does it say “they were not among the saints capable of judging” or even imply it. The text is about taking their matters to non believers or believers. Period. Paul is telling them that they ARE all saints and should not be taking anything to non believers.

>>The same distinction is apparent in "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints" (1 Corinthians 1:2).<<

Now why did you have to go do that again? Again, we look at a word for word translation from the Greek.

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth having been sanctified in Christ Jesus called saints with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ in every place both theirs and ours.

There is no way you can insert “to be” into that verse. In fact, look at the “with all those calling on the name of the Lord” quote. The assembly is in Corinth, they are sanctified, called saints, with all those calling on the name of the Lord. ALL those calling on the name of the Lord are called saints. It’s all contained in that one verse!

>>Your error is in failing to grasp the meaning of κλητοις.<<

No it’s not. Why do you think I included the sanctified reference? It’s past tense. Look at the verse above. It says having been sanctified in Christ Jesus. It’s a done deal and you just agreed in your first sentence of the post that “It is true that in 1 Corinthians 6:11 all parishioners are called "washed" "sanctified" and "justified" which means they were called by God but now ”having been sanctified” answered that call and are now saints. What’s so hard to understand about that.

>>"Called to be saints" is the correct translation,<<

Leave the “to be” out of it. They were called, they answered the call and are now saints. Put another way. They were a called people who answered that call and were sanctified and thus saints. ALL of them.

[CynicalBear]

>>The point remains that a saint is what Christians are called to become, not who they are.<<

Once again it’s the RCC twisting words. As I indicated in my previous post. We were all “called to become” but once we answered that call we were sanctified and are now saints.

[CynicalBear]

>>That the word “saint” is sometimes used by St. Paul without mentioning collections for them does not mean that saints are both offering and receiving collections.<<

Oh yes it does.

Collections for the saints were for those saints in need for instance in Jerusalem as we see in Romans 15:26.

Romans 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

From the saints for poor saints.

I know the Catholics want the apostles to somehow be a special class and that there be a special class of saints to support their pagan view of saints but scripture clearly does not support that. As a matter of fact Peter (of all people) states there is no distinction.

Acts 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us. 9 He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.

[CynicalBear]

>> Actually, I don’t “think”. I know what the Holy Church teaches and I explain it.<<

For sure you know what the RCC teaches and try to explain it. Problem is it’s another gospel not found in scripture and not having been taught by the apostles.

[annalex]

Paul is telling them that they ARE all saints

No he is not; he is telling them to become saints for they are called out to be saints.

ALL those calling on the name of the Lord are called saints.

Obviously not since they are listed one after the other.

answered that call and are now saints.

No because they we not yet prefected to the point of not having disputes before civil court. Clearly, "sanctified" does not refer to a completed process in their case.

They were called, they answered the call

"Sanctified" does not mean "answered the call". It means that the Holy Spirit is in them.

[annalex]

From the saints for poor saints

Your interpretation does not agree with the plain text of the gospel. St. Paul simply writes:

Now concerning the collections that are made for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, so do ye also. [2] On the first day of the week let every one of you put apart with himself, laying up what it shall well please him; that when I come, the collections be not then to be made. (1 Corinthians 16:1)

This is a collection "for the saints". Not for "some other saints", not for "the poor saints", plain "for the saints" and the other parishioners are to make these contributions.

[CynicalBear]

>>No he is not; he is telling them to become saints for they are called out to be saints.<<

LOL Yes they were “called out” to be saints as all believers have been called out by God.

"But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" (1 Peter 2:9).

>>Clearly, "sanctified" does not refer to a completed process in their case.<<

1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth having been sanctified in Christ Jesus called saints with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ in every place both theirs and ours.

What part of having been do you not understand?

>>"Sanctified" does not mean "answered the call". It means that the Holy Spirit is in them.<<

NO it doesn’t. The transliterated Greek word is hagiazó.

Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify
Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
[http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/37.htm]

[CynicalBear]

>> This is a collection "for the saints". Not for "some other saints", not for "the poor saints", plain "for the saints" and the other parishioners are to make these contributions.<<

Oh please. That’s getting really lame. Any reader of scripture can see why the collections were made. It was NOT for some special category of saint the RCC is so desperate to maintain. One only need read through to 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 to see that the collections were for those in other assemblies who were in need.

[metmom]

Actually, I don’t “think”. I know what the Holy Church teaches and I explain it.

must..... not..... comment.....

must.....

resist........

[cuban leaf]

I believe it was Jesus who touched the Hip of Jacob and put it out of joint.

Oh?

I thought Jesus never HAD a ‘body’ to wrestle with until He was born of Mary...

---

Yes, but he is in eternity. He can inject himself into any time he so chooses for any purpose. That is the one he chose.

I see it this way: time is a current that flows in an ocean called eternity.

[cuban leaf]

Do we really have to do this again?

---

Good question. At what point do we “shake the dust off our feet”?

[CynicalBear]

I’ll keep showing their errors as long as there are lurkers who read these threads and may get caught by the deception of the teachings of the RCC.

[CynicalBear]

ROFL

[daniel1212]

It may be postulated that a reason why PTDS is not Scriptural relates to the organic unity of the body, but the substantial reasons PTDS is extraScriptural and unScriptural is because it has no actual support and is contrary to what is taught as regards prayer to Heaven.> Attempts to extrapolate proof from Scripture actually exposes that. In reality, it is a tradition, and made into doctrine under premise that Scripture is not the supreme and sufficient authority, but that the church, which Scripture provides for, can channel nebulous oral tradition into doctrines.

As can be seen, out of the multitudes of prayers to Heaven and the teaching of the Holy Spirit on it, then the only one addressed is the Lord, and to whom the Holy Spirit Himself in believers makes intercession to, not crying "Mama, Mother," but "Abba, Father," (Gal. 4:6) nor such things as "I bow my knees unto the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14) and we are specifically instructed to pray to God, not "our Mother who art in Heaven..." or another saint.

In fact, the only souls seen making intercession to someone else but God were pagans. (Jer. 44:3-25)

And while support is given for believers on earth to ask earthly intercessors to pray for them, the Holy Spirit teaches that Christ is the only Heavenly mediator btwn God and man, (1Tim. 2:15) and that He is the approachable and uniquely able intercessor for man, and ever lives to do so. (Heb. 2:14-18; 4:14-16; 7:25) Moreover, He teaches that by Him believers have direct access into the holy of holies to met with God. (Heb. 10:19)

Thus there is neither any other Heavenly intercessor given nor warrant to go to another due to lack of access or empathy or ability.

In addition, nowhere do we see evidence that the departed can, akin to God, hear virtually unlimited prayers to them and respond to them, while literal communication btwn created beings in Heaven and those on earth required one to be in either place, even if by a vision God gave them.

Attempts to justify PTDS relies on arguments from silence and attempts at extrapolation, including believers judging angels and being given abundant life life. Yet at best this can only support speculation, not doctrine.

Attempting to rationalize away the reason for the complete absence of prayers to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord, the argument is made that believers in the OT were not yet in Heaven, but despite this being changed after the resurrection, with even and Christian martyrs being there, yet prayed continues to be only addressed directly to the Lord.

It is also argued that angels were not prayed to because they lack human compassion, yet RCs have prayers to angels today requesting help, protection and deliverance, which appeal to them based on their function as minsters of God for believers, likewise could Jews have, and in fact apostate Jews did so (which shows what company RCs are in), regardless of the Catholic polemic.

It is also argued that OT saints did not pray to angels because Heaven was closed to the Jews as a rule, with the way into the holiest preventing them, and they had no intercessor, with the Levitical priesthood being a barrier.

All of which are absurd arguments, as despite not being able to be with God until Christ died and rose, yet under the rubric of the atonement God would provide, the OT does not show any barrier to believers praying to God except due to sin and consciousness of it, or lack of faith, but it testifies that He hears any God-fearing soul of faith, even simple servants, (Gn. 24:12-14) or Lot, for "

The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit." (Psalms 34:18) "For this shall every one that is godly pray unto thee in a time when thou mayest be found: surely in the floods of great waters they shall not come nigh unto him." (Psalms 32:6)

And if they could pray to God they could also pray to angels round about His throne. (Is, 6:1-3; Rv. 7:11)

In the end, PTDS would not exist if it depended on Scriptural substantiation, upon which the church began in dissent from those who also presumed to teach mere traditions of men as doctrines.

[smvoice]

lol! How is your vacation going? Great, I hope!

[boatbums]

Gospel never says that we MUST excel in good works in order to be saved

Sure it does: the topic in James 2, Titus 3, Ephesians 2 is salvation, not, like you comically suggested not long ago, getting popular with others.

Sure it DOESN'T! I'll repeat...there is NO Scripture verse that says we must do good works in order to be saved.

As for your assertion that I "comically" asserted we do good works to be "popular with others", if you had taken time to read what I wrote and check the Scriptures - of which you claim to be fully knowledgeable - you would see that we are commended to do good works to demonstrate our genuine faith for the sake of others, like James 2 specifically states. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with these passages:

"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16)

This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. (John 15:8)

Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us. (I Peter 2:12)

Likewise urge the young men to be sensible; in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, dignified, sound in speech which is beyond reproach, so that the opponent will be put to shame, having nothing bad to say about us. (Titus 2:6-8)

In light of these passages, we can know that James 2 DOES speak about how our works justify us before men and demonstrate our faith is genuine. God, however, see our hearts and already knows us as we know Him. We do not do good works to be seen by others to earn their praise for us, but that God is praised and glorified. He is, after all, the power behind any of the good works we do, which is WHY He alone deserves all praise and glory. Once you study passages such as these, you will begin to understand the role works have in the life of a Christian - who is saved by grace through faith APART from works to the glory of God.

[Iscool]

It is true that in 1 Corinthians 6:11 all parishioners are called "washed" "sanctified" and "justified", just like the litigants are told to be not “unworthy to judge the smallest matters”. However, the fact remains that they were to present their dispute "before the saints", so therefore at the time of Paul's speaking they were not among the saints capable of judging. The same distinction is apparent in "sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints" (1 Corinthians 1:2).

Let us not invent our own gospel here, please. You are correct that there is no grammatical figure analogous to the English "to become":

That is exactly what you are doing...

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Would have worked almost as well to say, 'called to be Christians'...Christians are saints...

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

It couldn't be any more clear...You think Paul is speaking just to your special saints??? Paul is addressing the entire church and says 'YOU', not, the special saints only...Paul is addressing the saints, the entire church...

Your error is in failing to grasp the meaning of κλητοις. Often, it is indeed hard to find out the exact meaning, and the only method available is to look at other usages, but in this the dictionary is very clear: the adjective describes someone selected, rather than someone named in a certain way:

You mean like the way your religion uses the word Saint...Nope...You don't get to make up the rules...

There is exactly zero evidence in the scriptures that would justify Catholic Saints...They are extra-biblical, a false doctrine and a different gospel and is to be completely rejected by born again Christians...

[metmom]

Not on it yet. This weekend was a retreat and it was good.