Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Actually, you DID use that passage to promote praying to departed "saints". Inventing dogmas that are based on something the Scripture doesn't say you can't believe is dangerous. It is the cause of MUCH of the superstitious notions that cropped up in the medieval world.
Not to belabor the point, but let me explain why I disagree with the idea of prayers to departed "saints". I'll try to keep it short so you aren't burdened with another "dissertation".
First of all, asking fellow living believers to pray for you is giving them a part in what happens in your life - it gets them concerned for others and helps take "self" off the table as the primary concern.
Second, when they see prayers answered in their lives and others they have prayed for, their faith grows and matures. It is strengthened and edified and causes them to learn to trust God for all things. It teaches the lesson that we CAN cast ALL our cares on Him because He cares for us.
Third, praying to a departed "saint" doesn't provide that same benefit as we can not really know whether or not what results in our lives is because of their intercession or our own beseeching of God. What I see happening quite a bit WRT Catholic prayer to departed saints is the "saint" gets the praise and glory, the newspaper classified ad praise and exaltation. (i.e., need to sell your house? Bury a St. Joseph statuette in your yard...thanks St. Joseph! Need to find a lost item? Pray to St. Anthony. Have a lost cause, pray to St. Jude and remember to thank him or he won't help you next time.) Rarely, is Almighty God praised for the answered prayer. Even the process that a dead Catholic goes through to be considered a saint requires THREE verified and documented "miracles" that prove the person was prayed to and God heard it and granted the request!
Scripture says that ALL praise and glory and honor belongs to the Lord, it won't be shared by any others. In reality, Catholics do NOT have Scripture to back up their doctrines about praying to dead saints. It would be refreshing to see someone at least admit it for once.
Amen. The saddest group is the poor saps in the pews. Except for the fact that they refuse to open their Bibles and learn the truth. Those pews would be empty in a snap if that were the case. But they just sit there, mesmerized by the pageantry of it all.
Anyone but Jesus.....
That’s the way Satan has always worked. Just a simple word change here or there and vuala you have deception. Thank God we have the Spirit of Christ within us and the promise that He will never let us go.
But yeah...
Do I need to also prove to you that St. Paul believed in life after death?
Maybe this has never been taught to you, but linear time is merely a part of creation. Here is my take on it:
Eternity is not time neverending. It is a different place - outside of what we call linear time. That is why Jesus said:
John 8:58
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
I believe it was Jesus who touched the Hip of Jacob and put it out of joint. I believe that those who are resurrected to eternal life are alive, now “will be”.
So yes, I believe in eternal life, and I just assumed all Christians did, including Paul the apostle.
Jesus never said ‘born again’. He said ‘born from above’, and ‘born of water and the Spirit’. We may have a failure to communicate here.
One of the things that really annoys me about my church is just how many hymns we sing that have the word “mansion” in them even though the only place it appears in the bible is a gross misstranslation in the KJV.
I actually use the word “room” when we sing those songs.
On a side note, when singing I also replace thee and thou with “you”.
Catholic veneration is otherwise known as idolatry!
Your definition is too narrow. He's talking about those out doing the Lord's work. Today it would be like a missions program.
Here is a good definition and explanation of the use of the word you are referring to that is translated "Saints" in that scripture:
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexImage.cfm?tv=1379248388539&a
To a Christian, death does not represent any kind of barrier, certainly not where prayer is concerned.
Thanks and I tend to agree. If one accepts the blood of Christ for the perfect redemption of sin and then seeks a closer relation with and understanding of his Creator, it will work out in the end.
I’m not saying this happened, but I find it a compelling thought exercise: One of C. S. Lewis’ friends said that after Lewis had died, he was working in his office and Lewis suddenly appeared, sitting in one of his leather chairs. Lewis made one statement and then he was gone:
“It’s not that hard.”
Now it is up to the reader to interpret what “it” is - and, of course if they think it really happened. ;-)
Still “spamming” means something different: sending the same message to great many people who did not ask for it, at zero cost to the sender. I reject that characterization of my posts.
you would tell us that all believers are not “set apart”, Holy, and sacred?
No. They need to have authentic Catholic faith living in their works, and be free from mortal sin in order to be justified and then they become saints. Saint Paul indeed writes of people who have not been judged yet, but nevertheless, it is a select group inside the church of Corinth, not the entire congregation, as these verses make clear.
1 Corinthians 6:1. Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? So we see there that he is talking to all the believers in Corinth.
And you are double-talking. Paul indeed is addressing all the congregation. But he is urging them to "go to law ... before the saints" so naturally the "saints" are distinct from those who are judged by them.
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
And that is where you claim he is talking to “an ecclesial court of peer” right? But lets go on in that verse again remembering that he is talking to all the believers in Corinth. Unless of course you claim hat those “ecclesial court of peers” were the only ones he was talking to
Again he is talking to all but it does not mean all "will judge the world"; the saints will, -- he said so.
3 and if the world shall be judged by you.
So, he was talking to the all the believes at Corinth saying “the world shall be judged by you”. Notice, the saints shall judge the world” and followed by “shall be judged by you”.
Right, but the two -- the group spoken to and the group that will judge are not the same group at the moment of Paul's speech. There is the little word "if" that points to the parishioners' intention to become saints and St Paul encourages them. The rest of the chapter is devoted to that very subject: how do the litigants become saints and becomes capable of judgement? And this is Paul's lesson: to be ready to suffer loss (v. 7), be "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers" (v. 9); he concludes "Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor railers, nor extortioners, shall possess the kingdom of God" (v. 10).
So this is what separates saints from the rest of the parishioners: they are clean and humble and that makes them judges and gives them life eternal.
Observe further that St. Paul does not condemn the litigants. He writes: "such some of you were; but you are washed, but you are sanctified, but you are justified in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:11). So therefore they are all sanctified, but not all are saints yet.
Indeed, as I pointed out, the saints are not only separate as judges; there are collections made for them: see 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2 Corinthians 9:1 and a few similar.
The saints are the object of imitation to the parishioners but they are not every parishioner. Quoting more of myself:
St. Paul speaks of sainthood as an aspiration:to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that invoke the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:2)In all these quotes, unlike the two previous groups, the reference is explicitly made to all Christians, that is all who believe in Christ and love God, or receive God’s love. But to Paul they are not quite “saints” but rather “called to be saints”. That then matches the modern understanding perfectly, where we think of all believers as being on the road to sainthood, rather than necessarily sainted already. Was Paul thinking exclusively in terms of this life rather than afterlife as he reminded fellow Christians of their calling? No such narrow focus is apparent from the text itself, and surely St. Paul understood that not everyone would have an opportunity to reach the old age and retire in the church with the “saints” for whom he, Paul, held collections. Indeed, the image of Stephen reaching martyrdom in young age in the presence of Paul surely stood in Paul’s mind. Therefore his “called to be saints” cannot be understood in terms of economic arrangement that the Church might make for its elders. It is a reminder that no matter of what age we die and in what manner, we are all called to be saints in heaven.
the beloved of God, called to be saints (Romans 1:7)
to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. (Romans 8:28)
Veneration of saints is not another gospel. It logically matches the lessons of the gospel.
It is common for a saint to be despised by his fellow parishioners.
I showed from scripture how they are a select group: they judge others, collections are made for them, and they are the model for other parishioners.
Sure it does: the topic in James 2, Titus 3, Ephesians 2 is salvation, not, like you comically suggested not long ago, getting popular with others.
Of course, for that is what it teaches also. What I did not do was saying that it textually referred to departed saints. It does not: it refers to any saint at all.
I'll try to keep it short so you aren't burdened with another "dissertation".
Excellent. Thank you.
asking fellow living believers to pray for you is giving them a part in what happens in your life
That is even a better reason to ask a departed saint to do the same.
when they see prayers answered in their lives and others they have prayed for, their faith grows and matures
Of course, and likewise when we pray to a saint and God answers our prayer on the saint's intercession our faith grows and matures.
Third, praying to a departed "saint" doesn't provide that same benefit as we can not really know whether or not what results in our lives is because of their intercession or our own beseeching of God.
Whether you pray to a living saint or to departed one, it is invariably God Who answers the prayer on the intercession of that saint.
You haven't listed any distinction between a saint living and a saint departed. There is however one distinction you did not mention: when a canonized saint intercedes for me that is a prayer of "a just man" that "availeth much" (James 5:16). This is why, while it is good to ask your roommate to help you find that missing cellphone, it is better to ask St. Anthony.
Yes, I agree.
Yes, possibly. The point is that it is a distinct group who need the collections, apart from those who offer the collections.
I do, nearly daily. Everyone should pray for the souls of those who die. But that is not a prayer to saints for guidance and intercession: when someone dies I say a prayer for God (often invoking saints) to rest his soul with the saints.
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