Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
True; it is just that I am human and get tired of repeating myself.
Sure they are a select group...They are all the Christians...Is this your proof verse???
1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
Is that your select group of saints??? What I am sure you will not acknowledge is that the following saints are a specific group within the saints...They are not separate from the rest of the saints except that they are the POOR saints who can not support themselves...
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.<
Gal 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
There is no group of 'special Catholic saints' anywhere in the scriptures...
It is amazing that most all you Catholics will read books, catechisms and anything put out by people in your religion but appear to think will get leprosy if they touch a bible...
And you guys who do read the scriptures and then write this stuff are the decpters of people who without your deception may actually be searching for God...I would not want to be in your shoes at the Judgment...
I agree...And as we have seen here at FR, there are many former RCs who really were searching for God and realized the pageantry that appeals to so many wasn't leading to God so they kept searching and found Him...
And it may be true that most Catholics would turn to Jesus if they could see beyond the mass deception...
Oh?
I thought Jesus never HAD a 'body' to wrestle with until He was born of Mary...
Why?
The bible indicates it's Game Over for them.
Dang!
I've seen NO evidence of THAT!
Scripture also gives us the answer to that. All believers are “called out” or set apart from the worldly. We are a saint once we become a believer in Christ because we have been “set apart” or “sanctified” (hagiazó) and made holy by Jesus’ shed blood.
Transliteration: hagiazó
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-ad'-zo)
Short Definition: I make holy, sanctify
Definition: I make holy, treat as holy, set apart as holy, sanctify, hallow, purify.
[http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/37.htm]
Now who are sanctified?
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Notice that? Paul says all the believers in Corinth are sanctified, thereby “called out” and are called saints.
>> St. Paul speaks of sainthood as an aspiration:<<
Once again, let’s check what the Greek text really says in the verses you use.
1 Corinthians 1:2 … having been sanctified in Christ Jesus called saints ….
Romans 1:7 … beloved of God called saints…..
There is NO (to be) in either of those verses in the Greek text. They are directly called saints. They are NOT called “to be saints” but they ARE called saints.
Now in this next one we have a special problem of deceit from the RCC it would seem. You posted this which is obviously from the Douay-Rheims
Romans 8:28 to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints.
And here is the word for word translation from the Greek. (in the order the words are in the Greek text)
Romans 8:28 we know moreover that to those who love God all things works together God for good to those who according to [his] purpose called are
And again in versions other than the Douay-Rheims
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
There is no word “saint” in the Greek text of that verse let alone “called to be saints”. Why did the RCC insert it in the Douay-Rheims? Just to further the deceit? It would seem so. I understand how much you have invested in your Catholic faith annalex and I admire your dedication. You have, however, been deceived by the RCC and are now preaching “another gospel”. I beg you to take the blinders off and get down on your knees and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you. As it says in Revelation “come out of her my people that ye be not partakers in her plagues”. In addition you may want to do some research in scripture to see what befalls those who lead others into error.
Proverbs 26:12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.
No, because St. Paul does not refer to them in any other way, but simply "the saints".
No, the Bible doesn’t, and besides, God can apply my prayer retroactively.
What? disagreeing is supposed to make you right??? I posted some of the relavent scripture...So, again...
Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
All saints...Minister to all the saints...
Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
You just got hit over the head with it again...We can all see that the saints in Jerusalem were the 'poor' saints...Being poor does not make one a saint...
And how does that work??? God momentarily brings the person back to life and sets him on the earth so your prayer can take affect??? And then zips him back into purgatory til the next prayer comes along???
They are NOT called “to be saints” but they ARE called saints.
Let us not invent our own gospel here, please. You are correct that there is no grammatical figure analogous to the English "to become":
τη εκκλησια του θεου τη ουση εν κορινθω ηγιασμενοις εν χριστω ιησου κλητοις αγιοις
the church of God that exists in Corinth sanctified in Christ Jesus invited saints
Your error is in failing to grasp the meaning of κλητοις. Often, it is indeed hard to find out the exact meaning, and the only method available is to look at other usages, but in this the dictionary is very clear: the adjective describes someone selected, rather than someone named in a certain way:
κλητ-ός , ή, όν,A.invited, Aeschin.2.162, etc.; welcome, Od.17.386.2. called out, chosen, Il.9.165.3. invoked, Anon. ap. Suid.4. summoned to court, PAmh.2.79.5 (ii A.D.).
"Called to be saints" is the correct translation, it reflects that a saint is not quite yet reality, but an aspiration.
Why did the RCC insert it in the Douay-Rheims? Just to further the deceit?
Indeed, the original does not have "saints", simply, "called are" but how does it alter the meaning? The point remains that a saint is what Christians are called to become, not who they are. Thanks you for pointing it out, though -- I will not be using that verse then in the book.
You want me to give you foolish answers rather than wise ones?
I am sorry, I don’t think you understand the argument. That the word “saint” is sometimes used by St. Paul without mentioning collections for them does not mean that saints are both offering and receiving collections.
why oh why didn’t the Holy Spirit write a dictionary so we could understand the Word of God? Silly Him, He thought we could read and with His help we could KNOW God’s word plainly. I feel so foolish..
It works like this: God, Who predestines my steps knows of my prayer for the departed before I have offered it, and will include the prayer in His judgment before it is uttered.
So that you listen to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church rather than ignorant Protestant ministers when trying to understand the Holy Scripture.
Oh, annalex, I’ll hand one thing to you: you’re consistent. But so are we. The difference is you think, we know. You hope, we know. You wait to be, we are.
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