Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Elsie]

Here's code that WILL actually display a picture:

 

<img src="http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8605/wlt.JPG">

[Elsie]

I see that the attack on Catholics continues on FR.

Yup; especially on the rabid, nasty ones.

But, usually, the ATTACK, as you want to frame it; is upon the extra-biblical teachings of Catholicism.

BIG difference.

Now you know.

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I see that the attack on PROTESTants continues UNABATED on FR as well.

[Elsie]

No Christian should be attacking another Christian.

EVERY Christian should be ATTACKING false teachings!!!

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Rodney King (like Mary) is DEAD!

[Elsie]

EVERY Christian should be ATTACKING false teachings!!!

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Acts 17:18-19
 18.  A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to dispute with him. Some of them asked, "What is this babbler trying to say?" Others remarked, "He seems to be advocating foreign gods." They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.
 19.  Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting?

 

Acts 18:11
    So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.

 

 

 

 

 

Romans 15:4
 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

 

 

Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

1 Corinthians 11:2
 2.  I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,  just as I passed them on to you.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:7
  They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

 

 

1 Timothy 2:7
   And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:6
   If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 

2 Timothy 1:13
  What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.

 

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:1
  You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[Elsie]

But in this case it’s “can you spot, in this diatribe, the false assumption that causes this whole case to collapse?

Logic 101!

[Elsie]

In some ways they are even iron sharpening iron.

AMEN! hence; my homepage.

[jodyel]

I know enough to know it is heresy but that is as far as I want to go. I’ll leave them to you, elsie.

[ctdonath2]

I’m not RC.

[jodyel]

Thanks!

Knew you guys would set me straight. :)

[jodyel]

Thanks again!

[jodyel]

I want me some Fiber Optics out in the boonies!

I want them to lay some cable just for me!

LOL

[jodyel]

Actually, I was referring to where WVKayaker lives in the Philippines.

Even so, Dallas traffic is abysmal too. Glad I no longer have to deal with it.

[jodyel]

Fine, just pointing out that you missed the meaning of what he was saying...that’s all.

Peace.

[MarkBsnr]

Wow! Catholicism is some deceitful pit isn’t it. Let’s look at what that verse really says.

Very good.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, >>Jesus answered him, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above.”<< And again. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again [anōthen], he cannot see the kingdom of God. Anōthen Transliteration: anóthen Phonetic Spelling: (an'-o-then) Short Definition: from above, from the beginning, again [http://biblesuite.com/strongs/greek/509.htm]

"Again" is a tertiary meaning. The primary is 'above'.

Now let’s look at context. John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Who in there right mind when reading Nicodemus’ answer would think that he understood Jesus to mean “from above”? He wouldn’t have asked if he could enter the second time into his mother’s womb if he understood Jesus to mean from above. He clearly heard Jesus to say “again”.

Nicodemus had the Pharisee mindset. Jesus set him straight. Nicodemus heard Jesus say something that he interpreted through his own mindset. Kinda like the antiCatholics who believe their own personalized handstamped tagged version of Christianity that they consider to be as valid, if not more, than any other version of Christianity.

[MarkBsnr]

I think he is spot on all the time!

I prefer stripes.

[MarkBsnr]

Darn straight you are! But the laughter will turn to tears someday.

When I face the Lord on Judgement Day, no doubt.

I am putting you on my Catholic like list with St Thomas Aquinas, Mark. You seem a good egg even though we don’t hold the same views re: faith.

Is there anything I can do to get you to reverse your decision?

And any friend of Elsie is a friend of mine. :)

Golly. You have really low standards.

[smvoice]

And so The Mark and Elsie show begins :) Sorta’ like Nyuckkk Dynasty without the mo-pokes..;)

[annalex]

1260 clarifies: “It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity”. This means that they have the faith expressed in their works and ready to be infused with the Holy Spirit. You think that “faith” means book knowledge when in fact faith is disposition toward works of love. Anyone can have it, but of course there is no assuredness for anyone but Catholic Christian who dies in a state of grace (upon baptism, or after a good confession).

[MarkBsnr]

Jesus never said 'born again'. He said 'born from above', and 'born of water and the Spirit'. We may have a failure to communicate here.

Hmmm...A person was born out of the womb...And then the same person is born from above...Born twice...But after he was born out of the womb and being born the 2nd time, he wasn't born again...He was born twice but the 2nd time he wasn't born again...Sure thing...

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Is your point that the Greek is 'anothen'?

1Pe_1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

And Peter pope copies what Jesus said...You may not want to believe Jesus but don't you at least believe Peter???

I believe Jesus. I believe Peter. I don't believe any Tom, Dick, or Iscool that professes to interpret the Word incorruptably.

[annalex]

[the Church] teaches something the apostles did not which constitutes “another gospel”

Veneration of saints does not constitute another gospel because it is fully compatible with the gospel. Luther, Knox, Calvin, Smith -- these are other gospels. Go, condemn them.