Posted on 07/14/2013 3:02:43 PM PDT by NYer
Which is an example of the sophistry involved in trying to defend praying to departed saints (PTDS ), as the issue is not whether seeking the intercession of saints is Scriptural, but whether believers exist in two classes, saints and non-saints, with some in Heaven and others in purgatory, and that the former are to be prayed to.
First, believers in general are called "saints" in general, (Acts 9:41; 26:10; Rm. 8:27; 12:13, etc.) and verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy, (Ps. 16:11) NOT in purifying torments commencing at death until he/she becomes good enough to enter glory. Second, among the multitude of prayers in Scripture, the Holy Spirit provide absolutely zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven ("our Father who art in Heaven, " not "our mother," etc.). .
Extrapolating asking others to pray for you on earth into praying to those in Heaven means those in Heaven have an attribute of Deity, able to hear almost infinite amounts of prayer which Scripture does not support, and that this ability or position in Heaven is not restricted to God.
Moreover, PTDS saints infers that some insufficiency exists with Christ in either accessibility or ability that would advantage praying to others in Heaven.
In addition, in Scripture, communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both being in either earth or heaven.
The Catholic Church you must understand is the sole repository of the Truth of Christ on earth as given in the Great Commission to St. Peter, the Apostles and their disciples...
If she does say so herself. You must understand you simply are posting an argument by assertion, and your full assurance rests upon the premise of Rome's assured infallibility, which she has "infallibly" defined herself as having, and the only interpretation of Tradition, Scripture, and history that have any authority are those that come from Rome. We are not impressed.
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years.
While posting borrowed RC polemics without attribution may be encouraged by some RCs, we are supposed to credit sources, yours being Catholic answers, http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
Once again, even if they have omniscience regarding things on earth, this does not teach that believers are to pray to the departed, which only pagans are recorded as doing in Scripture, (Jeremiah 44:17) while the conclusion does not follow that offering prayers to God means they must be aware of all the detailed contents of the "golden vials full of odours," any more than a courier carrying a letter must be, much less be the object of prayer and thus making precise intercession on their behalf.
And for the relatively little fallible value it is worth, early patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers as being offered to God, not to the elders, (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1;, Origen, Against Celsus, 8:17;, Methodius, The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), and even this is not showing them being objects for intercession, even if they were departed saints, which itself is speculation. Meanwhile, Irenaeus wrote:
“Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..(Against Heresies, 2:32:5, 4:18:60)
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us...Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Again, the Catholic cannot find any example of prayers being made to departed saints, while what the RC sees as "clear" is a forced interpretation, for what the text says is that the elders brought "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints," not that they knew all the contents and were mentally reciting all the prayers to God.
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed:
It clearly does interfere with Christ’s unique position of mediatorship, as the Lord is the only object of prayer to Heaven, with His Spirit interceding directly to God on behalf of believers, (Rm. 8:27) with Christ being set forth by the Holy Spirit as the only intercessor btwn the Father, who he ever liveth to make intercession for them in Heaven, (Heb. 7:25) being uniquely qualified and able. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) Like the high priest in the holy of holies, believers in Christ have direct access to God, (Heb. 10:19,20) not thru secretaries.
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).
But which was a personal encounter in which heavenly beings came to earth, as in other communications btwn created beings in heaven and those on earth then they both were in either of the two realms. God is the only being in heaven ever shown being prayed to. Meanwhile, the only example of PTDS is pagan: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her“ (Jeremiah 44:17)
A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
Being not subject to the time/space limitations of this life at all is an assertion which itself does not go far enough, as it must extend to having no limitations on communication btwn created beings in both heaven and earth, either by Divine ability or sanction, which is contrary to what the Holy Spirit reveals.
Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly?
Because has so constituted believers on earth that they must communicate with each other by material means, not ESP or as gods, and they must respect the distinctions btwn the earthly and heavenly realms, and in which only the Lord is the direct immediate object of prayer from the former to the latter. That is all Scripture actually teaches, and trying to extrapolate PTDS based on earthly interaction ignores the distinctions btwn the two and has no actual support. Saints in heaven do not marry either.
It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
The Catholic "knows" how to present assertions as arguments, which the Holy Spirit failed to give even one sanctioned example of any believers praying to the departed, or of them being able to hear multitudinous prayers and intercede and solicitous of them .
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
Rather, this is not a prayer to them to heaven, anymore than what follows is, "Bless the Lord, all his works in all places of his dominion," (v. 22) or "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light " (Psalms 148:3) is, but such are poetic exhortations by the Holy Spirit ascribing worthiness of universal worship of God by all creation, not men on earth literally praying to such. "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. " (Psalms 148:13)
Once again Catholics have shown how they can abuse and disrespect Scripture in order to support their traditions of men.
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
Once again, there is nothing here that teaches the angels were prayed to, or even knew all the contents of the golden censer. The offering up of incense was an O.T. ordinance, and in Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God, and does not signify that the prayers needed an angelic postal service, much less heavenly secretaries, nor do the finite saints under the altar inquiring about the day of judgment (Rev. 6:9,10) support the Roman Catholic position.
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8)
The Catholic has already tried this, and is refuted above, and once again it fails to provide the support the Catholic premise of PTDS so desperately needs.
Despite having zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amidst the multitudinous prayers in Scripture , or in instructions on who to pray to in Heaven, and despite what is revealed concerning communication btwn created beings in heaven and earth, respectively, Catholics vainly try to support this pagan tradition from Scripture, and end up adding to it.
I am not following this thread closely, but I think this was dealt with before. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3003863/posts?page=260#260
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3003863/posts?page=239#239
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2891087/posts?page=990#990
“even in the case of the Septuagint, the apocryphal books maintain a rather uncertain existence. The Codex Vaticanus (B) lacks 1 and 2 Maccabees (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 1 Esdras (non-canonical, according to Rome). The Sinaiticus (Aleph) omits Baruch (canonical, according to Rome), but includes 4 Maccabees (non-canonical, according to Rome)... Thus it turns out that even the three earliest MSS or the LXX show considerable uncertainty as to which books constitute the list of the Apocrypha..” (Archer, Gleason L., Jr., “A Survey of Old Testament Introduction”, Moody Press, Chicago, IL, Rev. 1974, p. 75; http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-1101.htm)
All three codices [Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and Alexandrinus], according to Kenyon, were produced in Egypt, yet the contemporary Christian lists of the biblical books drawn up in Egypt by Athanasius and (very likely) pseudo-Athanasius are much more critical, excluding all apocryphal books from the canon, and putting them in a separate appendix. (Roger Beckwith, [Anglican priest, Oxford BD and Lambeth DD], The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church [Eerdmans 1986], p. 382, 383; http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/01/legendary-alexandrian-canon.html)
And if quoting from some of the Septuagint means the whole is sanctioned, then as said, in principle this leads to affirming even more books which are not in the RC canon
Since the Psalms of Solomon, which is not part of any scriptural canon, was found in copies of the Septuagint as is Psalm 151, and 3 and 4 Maccabees (Vaticanus [early 4th century] does not include any of the Maccabean books, while Sinaiticus [early 4th century] includes 1 and 4 Maccabees and Alexandrinus [early 5th century] includes 1, 2, 3, and 4 Maccabees and the Psalms of Solomon), then you are bound to accept them as well. More on problems here: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=3956
Go to go now...
Of course. I know that.
The problem is, Catholics demand that it be spelled out in the Catholic approved way of putting it in words they wnt to hear and think it should be in, and yet, when it comes to THEIR doctrine, that all goes out the window.
Our church is the Kingdom of God...And we don't need a phone to get in contact with the CEO...
And that makes 'your church with it's man made teachings' being USED by the deceiver to be raised up like a most high by your church's congregation - for 'man which is evil' - has his own words which is placrd above God's Word, the same thing Adam/Eve did when they listened/obeyed satan - and then they became children of the dark.
"How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how are you cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations! 13For you have said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also on the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Isaiah 14
Who's doing that? Links to complaints, if you can.
I belong to the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, of whom I am a member by being born again through faith in Jesus.
Catholics are singularly incapable of wrapping their minds around the concept that THE church, the body of Christ, is NOT a denomination or building. That is an organism, not an organization.
FWIW, I don't belong to a "church", I belong to Jesus. I am willing to attend any local assembly of believers whose statement of faith attests to salvation by grace through faith in Jesus, not of works.
I’m curious. I would like your opinion on the following: Do you interpret the phrase, “man is evil” to naturally and conclusively imply “man is ALL evil”? That is, that man is completely evil and without any capacity to seek after God? (iow, the classic definition of “total depravity”)
daniel,
Very nice point by point commentary. I sometimes tire of responding to the same old same old... so I appreciate your thought and effort even more.
ampu
I could even attend a Catholic church, if they started teaching what the scripture teaches...
“It would be great if protestants were willing to actually tell us what church they belong to so that they can’t hammer ‘personal attack’ everytime we challenge ‘personal’ beliefs.”
But in that you would overcome the purpose of using screen names, staying out of the personal realm, and dealing objectively with the doctrine or belief instead of the personality.
There is a certain percentage of us who feel that right is right and wrong is wrong without regard to the organization that espouses the idea and it is the message that should be dealt with not the poster.
Calling a poster a “troll” and a “vicious anti-catholic spammer” or something of like nature is not a “challenge ‘personal’ belief”.
Plus that wouldn’t keep them from personal attacks anyway.
As demonstrated by the response to those who DID reveal their denominational affiliation.
Cause once you affiliate with one, they expect you to be with it forever and then they go and find every loonytoons who ever even mentioned said denomination in passing and challenge with “So and so said this and he’s a such and such, why do you agree with him?”
If I thought for one minute that the Catholics were sincere and asking the question in good faith, it wouldn’t be so much of an issue, but precedent shows that it’s nothing more than religion baiting. I’ve seen FRoman Catholics actively trying to pit one non-Catholic against another on these threads.
Not playing.....
Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ, not of works and anyone who is a born again believer is a member of the body of Christ and my brother or sister IN Christ.
When I first got saved, that's what I did.
Except that they didn't so I left.
“I could even attend a Catholic church, if they started teaching what the scripture teaches... “
They teach a heck of a lot that is spot on.
So I’d rephrase your post as, “I could even attend a Catholic church, if they quit adding what the scripture doesn’t teach...
I’m thankful for all I learned in the Catholic Church in my youth. I feel blessed to have been “born on third base”.
SO, you can ask them to pray with you, but all prayers should IMO be directed to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
(The Holy Ghost is NOT the ones in Pac Man in case the low information voters are reading this)
God has the power to make the sky turn green.
But it doesn't happen just because a group of Christians says it does.
No man whether alive or dead is omnipresent. That's the domain of Deity.
Because the Bible is not a catechism. Words are not used throughout the Bible with a single, univocal, fixed sense.
The “dead in Christ” are DEAD—in the normal, everyday sense of the word. But they partake in eternal life, so they are alive.
IMO if you want to discuss beliefs then you need to ask "what do you believe?" not "what church do you attend?" Case in point: I myself attest to The Westminister Confession of Faith. Knowing that, you could easily discuss each of the thirty-three chapters with me, one by one without making it personal in any way. For that matter, you could even discuss it without me if you choose, because the topic is the belief, not the believer.
You can do this with anyone, and you would know more about things that people actually believe, and why they believe them, than you would know had you asked for the name of the church or denomination that people attend. That is, you can if you're interested in discussing beliefs, and not harassing people into leaving FR.
Go on, give it a try.
While TOTALLY giving their Bad Popes of History a summary pardon with a wave of the superior hand.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.
