Which is an example of the sophistry involved in trying to defend praying to departed saints (PTDS ), as the issue is not whether seeking the intercession of saints is Scriptural, but whether believers exist in two classes, saints and non-saints, with some in Heaven and others in purgatory, and that the former are to be prayed to.
First, believers in general are called "saints" in general, (Acts 9:41; 26:10; Rm. 8:27; 12:13, etc.) and verses which clearly speak of a N.T. believer's postmortem condition (Luke 23:43; Acts 7:59; 1Cor. 15:52; 2 Cor 5:8; 1 Th 4:17; 1Jn. 3:2) show it is with the Lord, in whose presence there is fulness of joy, (Ps. 16:11) NOT in purifying torments commencing at death until he/she becomes good enough to enter glory. Second, among the multitude of prayers in Scripture, the Holy Spirit provide absolutely zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven ("our Father who art in Heaven, " not "our mother," etc.). .
Extrapolating asking others to pray for you on earth into praying to those in Heaven means those in Heaven have an attribute of Deity, able to hear almost infinite amounts of prayer which Scripture does not support, and that this ability or position in Heaven is not restricted to God.
Moreover, PTDS saints infers that some insufficiency exists with Christ in either accessibility or ability that would advantage praying to others in Heaven.
In addition, in Scripture, communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both being in either earth or heaven.
The Catholic Church you must understand is the sole repository of the Truth of Christ on earth as given in the Great Commission to St. Peter, the Apostles and their disciples...
If she does say so herself. You must understand you simply are posting an argument by assertion, and your full assurance rests upon the premise of Rome's assured infallibility, which she has "infallibly" defined herself as having, and the only interpretation of Tradition, Scripture, and history that have any authority are those that come from Rome. We are not impressed.
The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years.
While posting borrowed RC polemics without attribution may be encouraged by some RCs, we are supposed to credit sources, yours being Catholic answers, http://www.catholic.com/tracts/praying-to-the-saints
As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers.
Once again, even if they have omniscience regarding things on earth, this does not teach that believers are to pray to the departed, which only pagans are recorded as doing in Scripture, (Jeremiah 44:17) while the conclusion does not follow that offering prayers to God means they must be aware of all the detailed contents of the "golden vials full of odours," any more than a courier carrying a letter must be, much less be the object of prayer and thus making precise intercession on their behalf.
And for the relatively little fallible value it is worth, early patristic commentators on Revelation 5:8 refer to the prayers as being offered to God, not to the elders, (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:17:6-4:18:1;, Origen, Against Celsus, 8:17;, Methodius, The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, 5:8), and even this is not showing them being objects for intercession, even if they were departed saints, which itself is speculation. Meanwhile, Irenaeus wrote:
“Nor does she [the church] perform anything by means of angelic invocations, or by incantations, or by any other wicked curious art; but, directing her prayers to the Lord, who made all things, in a pure, sincere, and straightforward spirit, and calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ..(Against Heresies, 2:32:5, 4:18:60)
In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us...Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
Again, the Catholic cannot find any example of prayers being made to departed saints, while what the RC sees as "clear" is a forced interpretation, for what the text says is that the elders brought "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints," not that they knew all the contents and were mentally reciting all the prayers to God.
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed:
It clearly does interfere with Christ’s unique position of mediatorship, as the Lord is the only object of prayer to Heaven, with His Spirit interceding directly to God on behalf of believers, (Rm. 8:27) with Christ being set forth by the Holy Spirit as the only intercessor btwn the Father, who he ever liveth to make intercession for them in Heaven, (Heb. 7:25) being uniquely qualified and able. (Heb. 2:17,18; 4:15,16) Like the high priest in the holy of holies, believers in Christ have direct access to God, (Heb. 10:19,20) not thru secretaries.
Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3).
But which was a personal encounter in which heavenly beings came to earth, as in other communications btwn created beings in heaven and those on earth then they both were in either of the two realms. God is the only being in heaven ever shown being prayed to. Meanwhile, the only example of PTDS is pagan: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her“ (Jeremiah 44:17)
A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.
Being not subject to the time/space limitations of this life at all is an assertion which itself does not go far enough, as it must extend to having no limitations on communication btwn created beings in both heaven and earth, either by Divine ability or sanction, which is contrary to what the Holy Spirit reveals.
Ultimately, the “go-directly-to-Jesus” objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly?
Because has so constituted believers on earth that they must communicate with each other by material means, not ESP or as gods, and they must respect the distinctions btwn the earthly and heavenly realms, and in which only the Lord is the direct immediate object of prayer from the former to the latter. That is all Scripture actually teaches, and trying to extrapolate PTDS based on earthly interaction ignores the distinctions btwn the two and has no actual support. Saints in heaven do not marry either.
It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.
The Catholic "knows" how to present assertions as arguments, which the Holy Spirit failed to give even one sanctioned example of any believers praying to the departed, or of them being able to hear multitudinous prayers and intercede and solicitous of them .
The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, “Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
Rather, this is not a prayer to them to heaven, anymore than what follows is, "Bless the Lord, all his works in all places of his dominion," (v. 22) or "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light " (Psalms 148:3) is, but such are poetic exhortations by the Holy Spirit ascribing worthiness of universal worship of God by all creation, not men on earth literally praying to such. "Let them praise the name of the Lord: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. " (Psalms 148:13)
Once again Catholics have shown how they can abuse and disrespect Scripture in order to support their traditions of men.
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3-4).
Once again, there is nothing here that teaches the angels were prayed to, or even knew all the contents of the golden censer. The offering up of incense was an O.T. ordinance, and in Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God, and does not signify that the prayers needed an angelic postal service, much less heavenly secretaries, nor do the finite saints under the altar inquiring about the day of judgment (Rev. 6:9,10) support the Roman Catholic position.
And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8)
The Catholic has already tried this, and is refuted above, and once again it fails to provide the support the Catholic premise of PTDS so desperately needs.
Despite having zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, amidst the multitudinous prayers in Scripture , or in instructions on who to pray to in Heaven, and despite what is revealed concerning communication btwn created beings in heaven and earth, respectively, Catholics vainly try to support this pagan tradition from Scripture, and end up adding to it.
daniel,
Very nice point by point commentary. I sometimes tire of responding to the same old same old... so I appreciate your thought and effort even more.
ampu
Christ fairly clearly answered the first question, when he said, "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." when he argued for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being currently alive. God had said, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." not "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Jesus used the verb tense to clarify that the deceased in the Lord are only deceased "here" and not in their relationship with God.
Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"
Scripture is suggestive:
Hebrews 11: Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God
Does the above verse mean merely that we have examples from the past, or does it mean that we are LITERALLY surrounded by these Witnesses...that they VIEW what we do?
From Revelation we read the following:
Revelation 22: 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"Revelation 19: 9 Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
In the above verse, is the "Angel" a former, glorified Christian, for he says "I am a fellow servant with you...who hold to the testimony of Jesus?" Jesus did say, "Matthew 22:30 NIV At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.
Matthew 17: 1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive. Moses and Elijah are "discussing with Jesus". That is clearly INVOLVED and not out of the picture.
We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth. Jesus said essentially that such a thing would be a waste of time, because those who should receive the message would not listen. He did NOT say "That's impossible because the deceased are not able to perform missions." Instead, He simply pointed out that they wouldn't listen "even if one rose from the dead."
This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.
Matthew 11:9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written: " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
This passage either indicates that Elijah will not return again, or it indicates that John the Baptist is a type of the return of Elijah, a greater fulfillment of which is yet future.
The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned, since these witnesses are those who "stand before the Lord". They are not identified. Many have speculated that they are: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John, or some other figures from the past people of God. I'll not identify them, since that isn't the point here. The point is that they are from "God's realm" and they can enter "this realm" and they have a mission.
Rev 11: 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.
So, we have seen that their is a thin separation between the world in which Moses and Elijah live and this one. We have seen that those folks can be missioned.
Can they hear us and see us?
The bible says about young children that "their angels behold the face of God. Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."
This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.
So, if they see what transpires, then it is possible that they are seeing you now.
And, if it is appropriate for them to listen, then it's appropriate for us to talk, but as the angel told John, "Worship God."
If someone is now listening, I'd like them to pray to God with me about my extremely ill, 3 year old grandson. Pray to God with me that he will be healed of the cancer that is ravaging his tiny body.
Was what I just did "worshipping" a real being who might be paying attention, or was it no different than asking you to pray with me?