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The real question is whether the dead in Christ are living or dead. The next question is whether they are now missioned or whether they are, during this interval of awaiting the return of Christ and the fulfillment of all things, awaiting a future mission .

Christ fairly clearly answered the first question, when he said, "He is not the God of the dead but of the living." when he argued for Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being currently alive. God had said, "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." not "I WAS the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." Jesus used the verb tense to clarify that the deceased in the Lord are only deceased "here" and not in their relationship with God.

Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"

Scripture is suggestive:

Hebrews 11: Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37 They were stoned; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated-- 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40 God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. Hebrews 12: 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Does the above verse mean merely that we have examples from the past, or does it mean that we are LITERALLY surrounded by these Witnesses...that they VIEW what we do?

From Revelation we read the following:

Revelation 22: 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
Revelation 19: 9 Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10 At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

In the above verse, is the "Angel" a former, glorified Christian, for he says "I am a fellow servant with you...who hold to the testimony of Jesus?" Jesus did say, "Matthew 22:30 NIV At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.

Matthew 17: 1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. 4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive. Moses and Elijah are "discussing with Jesus". That is clearly INVOLVED and not out of the picture.

We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth. Jesus said essentially that such a thing would be a waste of time, because those who should receive the message would not listen. He did NOT say "That's impossible because the deceased are not able to perform missions." Instead, He simply pointed out that they wouldn't listen "even if one rose from the dead."

This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.

Matthew 11:9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written: " 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' 11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.

This passage either indicates that Elijah will not return again, or it indicates that John the Baptist is a type of the return of Elijah, a greater fulfillment of which is yet future.

The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned, since these witnesses are those who "stand before the Lord". They are not identified. Many have speculated that they are: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John, or some other figures from the past people of God. I'll not identify them, since that isn't the point here. The point is that they are from "God's realm" and they can enter "this realm" and they have a mission.

Rev 11: 3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. 6 These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not rain during the time they are prophesying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they want.

So, we have seen that their is a thin separation between the world in which Moses and Elijah live and this one. We have seen that those folks can be missioned.

Can they hear us and see us?

The bible says about young children that "their angels behold the face of God. Matthew 18:10 "See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."

This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.

So, if they see what transpires, then it is possible that they are seeing you now.

And, if it is appropriate for them to listen, then it's appropriate for us to talk, but as the angel told John, "Worship God."

If someone is now listening, I'd like them to pray to God with me about my extremely ill, 3 year old grandson. Pray to God with me that he will be healed of the cancer that is ravaging his tiny body.

Was what I just did "worshipping" a real being who might be paying attention, or was it no different than asking you to pray with me?

The real question is whether the dead in Christ are living or dead.

That is not the issue, but a straw man, as the real issue is whether Scripture teaches prayer to departed saints, (PTDS ) which it manifestly does not. See my recent post in response to another vain attempt to support PTDS, some of which errors this post also contains.

Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"...Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,

Even if they were watching this does not teach they are to be prayed to, or are interceding, but here the RC leaps to a conclusion the text does not teach, which is due to the fact that despite the multitude of prayers in Scripture, the Holy Spirit provides absolutely zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven ("our Father who art in Heaven, " not "our mother," etc.), and communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both being in either earth or heaven.

And yet as it is, Hebrews 12:1 does not necessarily teach that saints are literally watching us anymore than we are to be literally "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) but that in we are surrounded by the examples of faith listed in the previous chapter (11), and "look" unto the Lord of Scripture, the author and finisher of our faith.

Once again the Catholic is reading into the text that which is not warranted by it, as Scripture simply does not teach the entity of Revelation 19: 9; 22: 8 was a human who became an angel, nor that they will become so, and contextually the Lord's words were that believes will be like angels in that they do not marry, as they have spiritual bodies.

If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.

But the Catholic conclusion that follows is, of necessity, a forced interpretation by the Catholic. That believers will be privileged to serve the Lord is supported, (Rv. 22:3), but conversely, that they are to be prayed to and can process virtually infinite amounts of prayer is not , but is read into Scripture by Catholics trying to do what the Holy Spirit does not.

In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive.

Again, that they may be active does not support PTDS, and here, this was a personal encounter in which heavenly beings came to earth, and as in other communications btwn created beings in heaven and those on earth then they both were in either of the two realms. In contrast, God is the only being in heaven ever shown being prayed to .

Meanwhile, the only example of PTDS is pagan: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her“ (Jeremiah 44:17)

We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth.

But which was visible personal communication btwn two persons out of the earthly realm of the flesh and blood, not that of mortals on earth mentally praying to saints in glory. Nor did the rich man ask Abraham or Lazarus to pray to Go for his concerns. .

This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.

But which again, this is not that of humans praying to those in glory, and instead, what this text supports is the observation that communications btwn created beings from heaven and those on earth required that they both were in either of the two realms, not praying to heaven from earth, except directly to God.

The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned

But which is that of men on earth, not praying to them in heaven. Thus by one vain attempt to support PTDS after another it is made manifest it has no real support despite efforts of ecclesiastical extrapolations

This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.

And which does not praying to them, but testifies to how the Holy Spirit is faithful to provide what is necessary for faith and doctrine, and only teaches God as being the object of prayer to Heaven, and that believers in Christ have direct immediate access to God in Heaven, (Heb. 10:19) and the sufficiency of Christ as the uniquely able and available ceaseless intercessor, to God be the glory.

Time for bed now.