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The real question is whether the dead in Christ are living or dead.

That is not the issue, but a straw man, as the real issue is whether Scripture teaches prayer to departed saints, (PTDS ) which it manifestly does not. See my recent post in response to another vain attempt to support PTDS, some of which errors this post also contains.

Now we come to the sticky question: "Are the deceased missioned or simply awaiting the consummation?"...Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses,

Even if they were watching this does not teach they are to be prayed to, or are interceding, but here the RC leaps to a conclusion the text does not teach, which is due to the fact that despite the multitude of prayers in Scripture, the Holy Spirit provides absolutely zero examples of any believer praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord, or in any instructions on who to pray to in Heaven ("our Father who art in Heaven, " not "our mother," etc.), and communication btwn created beings from their respective realms required both being in either earth or heaven.

And yet as it is, Hebrews 12:1 does not necessarily teach that saints are literally watching us anymore than we are to be literally "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith," (Hebrews 12:2) but that in we are surrounded by the examples of faith listed in the previous chapter (11), and "look" unto the Lord of Scripture, the author and finisher of our faith.

In the above verse, is the "Angel" a former, glorified Christian, for he says "I am a fellow servant with you...who hold to the testimony of Jesus?" Jesus did say, "Matthew 22:30 NIV At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

Once again the Catholic is reading into the text that which is not warranted by it, as Scripture simply does not teach the entity of Revelation 19: 9; 22: 8 was a human who became an angel, nor that they will become so, and contextually the Lord's words were that believes will be like angels in that they do not marry, as they have spiritual bodies.

If the angel is a former Christian, now glorified, then believers are given Mission/Work to do and are not just "awaiting the consummation" in heaven.

But the Catholic conclusion that follows is, of necessity, a forced interpretation by the Catholic. That believers will be privileged to serve the Lord is supported, (Rv. 22:3), but conversely, that they are to be prayed to and can process virtually infinite amounts of prayer is not , but is read into Scripture by Catholics trying to do what the Holy Spirit does not.

In the transfiguration stories in the gospels, we again see the "deceased in the Lord" being ACTIVE and not passive.

Again, that they may be active does not support PTDS, and here, this was a personal encounter in which heavenly beings came to earth, and as in other communications btwn created beings in heaven and those on earth then they both were in either of the two realms. In contrast, God is the only being in heaven ever shown being prayed to .

Meanwhile, the only example of PTDS is pagan: “But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her“ (Jeremiah 44:17)

We could also put up Jesus' story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, and in it we see a direct question about the deceased being used to deliver a message to those living on earth.

But which was visible personal communication btwn two persons out of the earthly realm of the flesh and blood, not that of mortals on earth mentally praying to saints in glory. Nor did the rich man ask Abraham or Lazarus to pray to Go for his concerns. .

This, however, is connected to the mission of Elijah. We just saw Elijah talking to Jesus with Moses, so there is a real, living Elijah.

But which again, this is not that of humans praying to those in glory, and instead, what this text supports is the observation that communications btwn created beings from heaven and those on earth required that they both were in either of the two realms, not praying to heaven from earth, except directly to God.

The two witness of Revelation 11 also suggest that the deceased are missioned

But which is that of men on earth, not praying to them in heaven. Thus by one vain attempt to support PTDS after another it is made manifest it has no real support despite efforts of ecclesiastical extrapolations

This suggests that individual angels are guardians, that they see what transpires with little ones, and that they report to God.

And which does not praying to them, but testifies to how the Holy Spirit is faithful to provide what is necessary for faith and doctrine, and only teaches God as being the object of prayer to Heaven, and that believers in Christ have direct immediate access to God in Heaven, (Heb. 10:19) and the sufficiency of Christ as the uniquely able and available ceaseless intercessor, to God be the glory.

Time for bed now.

Thank you both, dear brothers in Christ, for sharing your insights and these beautiful Scriptures!

As for me, I will simply continue to pray to the Father in Jesus' Name in the form, structure and priority He stipulated. Namely,

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as [it is] in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. - Matt 6:9-13

I find that everything I need to lay before Him fits perfectly within that structure, in the proper priority - e.g. Thy will be done. Likewise, He is our daily bread (John 6:48, He is the bread of life and man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God - Matt 4:4).

Following the Lord's prayer keeps the perspective as it should be, as He explains, continuing in verse 14-15:

For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

God's Name is I AM.

This article posed the question “Where does the Bible say we should pray to dead saints?”

I gave you a biblical explanation for believing that those who have gone on to be with the Lord having a function as opposed to having no function.

I suggested their function leaves open the possibility that they might hear us, so that ADDRESSING them could be possible, and that in limited circumstances there could actually be hearing that takes place. (Another possibility would be Balaam, the angel, and the ass.) While unseen by Balaam, the angel was aware of what transpired and what was said.

I am more comfortable believing the dead in Christ have a function rather than having no function. I don’t think I’ve locked it down scripturally, but what I’ve considered certainly suggests thinking along these lines is supportable scripturally.

I do believe that the spiritual dimension intersects our earthly realm and that both transport and communication between those realms is scriptural. Paul and John were both lifted to the heavenlies prior to their deaths.