Posted on 12/10/2012 9:27:44 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
...gambling, rock music, etc, etc?
Now, this thread isn't about debating what is sin and what isn't or what constitutes sin or doesn't. Please don't hijack this thread over the issues that I listed. Thank you.
This thread is about our changing culture - and let's face it, more and more denominations/churches are ever so slowly moving towards tolerance and/or acceptance of homosexual marriage. The rest in the list (following gay marriage) that I included in the thread were put there to show that if you look back far enough at various denomination's church bylaws some churches were once against this or that - but no longer are. Just like they once were adamantly against homosexuality/homosexual marriage, but are slowly drifting away from that.
Which makes me wonder and posit the following question:
Those (the various ministers who were the crafters of church bylaws and voted on them) believed that they were following God's will in the crafting of their church/denomination bylaws. And they believed that they had it right (or scripturally correct) be it in the early 1800's, early 1850's, late 1800's, early 1900's mid 1900's, etc.
So, if a church/denomination "took a stand" against drinking and smoking or gambling, etc, etc in the 1800's in its bylaws but now has since changed the bylaws on these, did those back in the 1800's really hear from God when they crafted those bylaws? If not, then how can those today who change the church bylaws on these things be certain that they aren't making a mistake by changing the church/denomination's bylaws as they are just as fallible as those who lived back then?
Which leads to churches and the slow change in many denominations taking place over gay marriage....
Where are we as a society headed? What bylaw(s) is/are absolutely correct and never need to be changed?
For example, seeing as Jesus drank wine, I doubt Churches that banned alchohol when prohibition was a popular thing were hearing from God.
No wonder Christianity is in decline in the West.
What say you?
Drinking, gambling, rock music, etc. are not defined in the Bible as sins per se. Anything that comes between you and God is wrong and should be condemded but not necessarily as a sin. Anything in excess, ie that controls you, is bad.
Homosexuality is specifically denouced as a sin in the Bible. No amount of rewriting by-laws will change that. Churches that doing this are more interested in the present life of their church and placating the political winds.
Okay, so if the Roman Catholic Church says that Protestant denominations that have a correct form of baptism, etc are now merely “separated brethren” and no longer “heretics” under Vatican II - so were they correct pre Vatican II or post Vatican II?
Did the RCC hear from God during the Inquisition(s)? If not, are they hearing from God now?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not Catholic bashing - this goes for all churches/denominations.
Bylaws - about what’s sin or not..... how about just use the Bible
If a rock music song glorifies homosexuality, is that song itself wrong to listen to?
If someone can become hooked to gambling the first time they gamble, should they have never gambled in the first place? But how will they know that they are that part of the percentage of society that gets hooked on something the first time they try it ahead of time as it would be impossible for them to know ahead of time?
Why do any denominations/churches change their stance on issues? That is what I am getting at.
Having investigated this by talking to individuals who were leaders in churches at this time, and the current “senior” leaders of such churches (including PC, USA; whom I just left after decades of service; I have served as an elder, deacon, and even informally as a substitute pastor); the truth is painful, but hard to ignore. They simply don’t believe in God. They have a spiritual belief, but not one that is consistent with scripture. They do not believe that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, they believe it needs to be updated for “modern culture”. They do not believe in an unchanging God, an unchanging and absolute moral code, or in most cases in a literal hell. They believe in everything, and nothing. They will continue to cave on bylaws, until they are indistignuishable from the pagans.
The most pernicious of these is the music that has been tolerated in churches. We now have the lion's share of evangelical church congregations segregated by "traditional" worship and "contemporary" worship. Abominable. And much of the "contemporary" music featured in these services would make most Christians blush if performed in the sanctuary only 20 years ago.
I've also noticed that the contemporary worship services are incrementally preempting the traditional worship, with congregations feeling the need to have at least one "with it" piece in the service to placate the "emergent" crowd. Contemporary services are also vying for prime scheduling times as well. The conservative Baptist Church my mom attends has relegated the traditional worship service to 8:30 with the contemporary service winning the prominent 11:00 spot. The evangelical church I have been attending still have the traditional service at 11:00 (with a "rock" service held concurrently in another auditorium but with the sermon videoed in), but the early and evening services are both modern.
Go ahead and accuse me being "prudish," but this is exactly how the incremental move toward the heresy we are witnessing starts.
I suppose the reasons church people change their “by-laws” are as varied as people are themselves. The only binding “by-laws” for the “called out ones” are the precepts God as recorded in scripture and those haven’t changed ever. And never will.
Helpful FYI only... plz
Governing documents of churches - the "bylaws" ---
Don't (usually) include behavior checklists of the cultural "Do's and Dont's" -- what they are "FOR" and "AGAINST".... etc
They DO contain a commitment to Biblical Christian doctrine--
--OR--
(by omission-usually),,,,
A modified doctrinal statement that is NOT committed to the lifestyle encouraged through God's Word...
Enjoy your day--God bless.
Whose interpretation is correct?
In a rathare large mega church some years ago, I heard a preacher preach against rock music, but he dared not preach against country music because that was ground he didn’t wish to trod. This was to the delight of the older crowd but to the consternation of the younger crowd there.
The parents were telling their kids to not listen to rock music, and the kids replied “but you listen to country music and songs that talk about adultery, fornicating, drunkenness, etc.”
People who use the “water into wine” excuse are simply being deceived by one verse of Scripture taken completely out of Biblical context.
There are two kinds of ‘wine’ in the Bible. Fermented and unfermented. Unfermented “wine” or grape juice is “Holy” or “clean” while fermented wine is “unholy” and “unclean.” All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!
When the juice of the grape is still “in the cluster” God calls it “wine.” Grape juice still in the cluster is not ‘fermented’ wine, it is unfermented wine. It is grape juice.
Jesus neither drank nor created fermented wine.
Opps, meant to say “rather”
Seems that if you want people to attend, then you have to appeal to those people. What’s the use of having a church that is empty?
I submit that there is a difference between the acceptance of homosexuality in the (mainline mostly) church and the acceptance of other, previously unaccepted beliefs and behavior, such as no-fault divorce, unmarried cohabitation, separate entrances for men and women, praise bands with drums, pews with cushions, alcohol, smoking, universalism, the Social Gospel, etc.
It strikes me that in the case of homosexuality, more so than the others, that the Devil is openly and loudly and proactively banging on the door of the church, demanding to be let in. For most or all of the other issues, the acceptance was made (rather more) quietly, one person at a time, one church at a time, one instance at a time.
I don’t recall great debates over no-fault divorce, unwed cohabitation, and other sexuality-related issues. The acceptance came gradually and (more or less) quietly.
Having achieved success with no-fault marriage, the devil has now become more audacious and visible. He demands that the church publicly announce either its denial that homosexuality is sinful, or that take no action against this sin.
In the mainline denominations of the United Church of Christ, Presbyterian USA, Episcopal U.S., United Methodist, and Evangelical Lutheran, Satan has more or less won.
Is quantity more important than quality?
Is changing with the times to appeal to the madding crowd more important that pusuing absolute truth - even if you never reach absolute truth in all things?
For that matter, it used to be a MORTAL SIN to receive Communion if you had eaten before. Then it went down to "an hour" before . . . then it went to you could have a McD Burrito on your breath while receiving Communion.
Then, it was a mortal sin to miss Mass on Sundays . . . then you could go to Mass on Saturday afternoons (especially good if you had an early Sunday t-time) . . . then . . .
Most Christian religions have become so secularized that they are NOT Christian anymore. The extremely lax attitude towards abortion (Thou Shall Not Kill) throughout Christianity has allowed people with "good" conscience to vote for someone like Obambastard who believes 100% in all abortions and the murder of "live" birth depending on the circumstances.
Seems like the only place of refuge for anyone who truly believe in Jesus Christ is a Bible-based, hell preaching, homosexuality condemning, Church . . . where ya' gonna' find that?
Catholic Church has caved in . . . Methodism can't quite find a firm opinion on the murder of 3,300 American babies DAILY (but they do fell strongly about gambling) . . . etc.
The only church I found that preaches what Jesus stands for is a little church in West Virginia called Left Fork Baptist Church where the preacher very loudly, and with a Bible in his hands, condemns everything that is kinda' OK in the pathetic suburban Christian churches. May God help us all!
Sir, that is a recipe for heretical disaster.
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