People who use the “water into wine” excuse are simply being deceived by one verse of Scripture taken completely out of Biblical context.
There are two kinds of ‘wine’ in the Bible. Fermented and unfermented. Unfermented “wine” or grape juice is “Holy” or “clean” while fermented wine is “unholy” and “unclean.” All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!
When the juice of the grape is still “in the cluster” God calls it “wine.” Grape juice still in the cluster is not ‘fermented’ wine, it is unfermented wine. It is grape juice.
Jesus neither drank nor created fermented wine.
Not to take away from the original post...but THAT is a stretch. I neither drink, nor condone it, but I DO cook with it. Unholy and unclean? No.
Churches getting comfortable with and condoning sin, such as murder and homosexuality, which are EXPLICITLY condemned in the Bible, are falling in line with what Jesus (indirectly as there was no church yet)Peter, and Paul said would happen.
I agree, Wasichu. The alcohol apologist Christians I debate are always telling me that drinking to excess - to the point of intoxication - is the sin.
It's funny, though. I can never find any pro-alcohol Christians who DON'T drink the point of intoxication.
eye roll
The Bible is clear - drinking is allowed drunkenness is not
People who use your argument have other issues with fermented ‘wine’, if you don’t like it don’t drink.
Ignores the basic science of fermentation. Until sulfates were added to grape juice in the 1800’s it would naturally ferment inside of hours.
Jesus neither drank nor created fermented wine.
There are many places that indicate that it is not wrong to drink wine as long as it does not become drunkenness.
“There are two kinds of ‘wine’ in the Bible. Fermented and unfermented. Unfermented “wine” or grape juice is “Holy” or “clean” while fermented wine is “unholy” and “unclean.” All alcoholic beverages are unholy and unclean!”
No, there is not two kinds of wine in the Bible.
I was in your camp, but when I pushed hard for the evidence for this, nobody could show it to me.
On the other hand, evidence that believers drank alcoholic wine is scattered throughout both the old and new testament.
For example, Paul (in a letter) chastises some believers for getting drunk on the wine from the Lord’s Supper. Yet, he doesn’t chastise them for serving alcoholic wine at the Lord’s supper to begin with, just for drinking too much.
Please include in any response all of the lyrics that you find so offensive and the exact, undeniable scripture that states that ALL wine consumption is sin.
Pretzilian Theology at its best.
Where in scripture is the admonition against fermented wine?
As a practical matter, grape juice in a hot climate will not keep. Try it some time. The alcohol of the fermentation process is what causes it to keep.
What are you talking about? Wine is fermented. Grape juice naturally gets formented and is "natural". I think it would be pretty hard to make grapejuice and maintain it in that state from the time of the harvest until passover. The juice of a grape will ferment. I don't speak Greek, but I was told that the original Greek texts say wine.
If I am not mistaken Jesus drank a glass of wine now and then (Matthew 11: 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." )
Remember the passage about new wine in old wineskins? The reason is that you couldn't drink new wine, you had to age it. If you put it into old skins, the skins would deteriorate and break. YOu had to use new skin.
And remember how Paul told Timothy to use a little wine with his water for his stomach's sake? To us, it doesn't make sense, since alcohol causes ulcers. But Paul recognized that wine mixed with water helped prevent stomach problems (diarrhea and dystentary).
Wine wasn't just served at weddings (Last Supper, anyone?), it was served at every meal, in all Jewish homes. Because wine was naturally fermented back then, absent the addition of yeast and sugar, it wasn't quite as potent as wine that was created several hundred years later. But, it was still fermented and still plainly alcoholic.
For example, the wedding in Cana, where Jesus turned the water into wine, happened near passover. In the spring. Grapes are harvested in fall.
With wine there is no grape juice and suddenly wine. There was no form of long term storage for grape juice, no preserving it. Grape juice in short order would spoil. So from the pressing of the grapes, the juice would IMMEDIATELY begin to be processed into wine. Fermentation is not simply leaving grape juice out for a long bit of time, that is spoilage. So making wine is a deliberate process.
Now as the Hebrew word Tirosh means new wine, new wine is wine that is not fully fermented. Drinking wine at this point can make one sick, if not dead. The alcohol has not killed all the bacteria at this point.
So the Oinos (gr) that Jesus made would have been Yayin and not Tirosh.