Posted on 03/17/2012 2:30:01 PM PDT by reaganaut
I understand the history of the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary (ἀειπαρθένος). I know it was taught as early as the 4th century, and I understand the development of "Spritual Marriages" in the Early Middle ages. That isn't what I am asking.
I have a good grasp of the history, doctrine and Biblical texts. I have done a lot of research on the topic. I grew up in Catholic school and Matthew 1:25 always got me in trouble during Catechism class.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (Matthew 1:25).
"Know" is a very common idiom for sex in Judaism of the period of writing. Again, I don't want to debate the text or history.
Protestants have no issue with Joseph and Mary having a normal marriage and having sexual relations AFTER the birth of Jesus (not before for obvious reasons) and having other children.
What I am curious about is the WHY the doctrine is important to MODERN Catholics (Medieval Catholics I get). Why does matter if Mary was ever-virgin (after the birth of Christ) or not?
Nice
It's argued that Joseph "knew" Mary at some point because Matthew 1:25 reads, "And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son..." But, once again, language clouds the issue. "Until" is used to mean "up to that point, and with no intimations that things changed after that point." Example, 2 Samuel 6:23 reads, "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death." Would Protestants say she had children after the day of her death because the use of the word "unto" proves it? What about 1 Samuel 15:35? "And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel." I really doubt Samuel and Saul hooked up after his death, either! 1 Timothy 6:14 says, "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." What? After that it's going to be one big orgy? I don't think so! And the same goes for:
Genesis 8:7: "the raven "did not return until the waters were dried up" (the raven never returned even after the waters were dried up);
Deuteronomy 34:6: "and no one knows his [Moses'] grave until this day." (Moses' grave was never found)
Luke 1:80: "[St. John the Baptist] was in the deserts until the day of his manifestation to Israel." (St. John stayed in the desert afterwards, too)
1 Corinthians 15:25: "For He must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet" (Christ will reign forever and ever!)
1 Timothy 4:13: "until I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine" (Trust me, St. Paul gave a lot of attention to doctrine after he came!)
Revelation 2:25-26: "But hold fast what you have until I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power" (we should hold fast and obey even after Jesus returns)
And there are more examples. See what Origen (A.D. 185-232) had to say about the use of the word "until" in his Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew. In this work, he refutes those who think "that the promise of the Saviour prescribes a limit of time to their not tasting of death, namely, that they will not taste of death "until" they see the Son of man coming in His own kingdom." Read also what St. Jerome (A.D. 340-430) wrote on the same topic.
**Nope. It’s a fact.**
So you guys had a security cam in their bedroom everynight after Jesus was born?
**Women do not give birth to flesh. They give birth to persons. Jesus was a person. He was not just flesh.**
I used the term flesh since the Christ used it so often to describe the physical part of man. Mary did not create the soul that lived in that body, nor the divine Spirit that performed the miracles. The body that Mary’s soul lived in was designed by God to give natural, physical birth. All she had to do was eat, sleep, and take generally good care of herself.
We that believe Mark 6:3 to mention 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters would understand how, in Luke where, “TEMPLE ALONE” happened: Mary and Joseph may have possibly had 6 or more children by that time, maybe two that couldn’t even walk yet. Traveling with a crowd with all those kids, the keeping track of everybody may have been a hard thing to do. Jesus was 12 and responsible I’m sure; so for him to be out of sight wasn’t that much cause for alarm when there were the young ones that needed to be handled and herded. BUT:
According to forever a virgin theory, Mary and Joseph traveled a DAY’S journey WITHOUT missing their ONLY child......ONLY the MOST IMPORTANT child EVER born on the planet. They would have been visited by DCFS nowadays for not being able to keep track of ONE child for a full day. My wife says that, nomatter if her only son had been 12 and responsible, she’d have had one eye on her one and only child, and one on everything else.
The juggling of definitions of words, and the relying on traditions of vain men, do not prove that Joseph and Mary slept in separate beds for their entire married lives. The word seems to strongly point otherwise.
To this ‘always a virgin’ matter, I believe Paul would say: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith; so do”. 1 Tim. 1:4
In post #180 you said "the Presentation of Mary at the temple took place when she was three years old
????????????
You wrote:
“So you guys had a security cam in their bedroom everynight after Jesus was born?”
No, we have the constant teaching of God’s Church.
“Mary did not create the soul that lived in that body, nor the divine Spirit that performed the miracles.”
No, she was just the Mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is His mother.
“All she had to do was eat, sleep, and take generally good care of herself.”
No, all she had to do was say yes and make herself the handmaid of the Lord. She also had to suffer her heart being pierced. She endured quite a bit.
“We that believe Mark 6:3 to mention 4 brothers and at least 2 sisters would understand how, in Luke where, “TEMPLE ALONE” happened:”
There were no other children of Mary - that’s why Jesus alone was called the son of Mary in the New Testament.
“According to forever a virgin theory, Mary and Joseph traveled a DAY’S journey WITHOUT missing their ONLY child......ONLY the MOST IMPORTANT child EVER born on the planet.”
Which just proves my point. If you’re saying that they lost their “ONLY the MOST IMPORTANT child EVER born on the planet” because of other children then Jesus could not have been all that important after all, right? You can’t have it both ways. Jesus stayed behind. Mary and Joseph probably assumed He was with another relative in the caravan since that’s how things were done.
“My wife says that, nomatter if her only son had been 12 and responsible, she’d have had one eye on her one and only child, and one on everything else.”
You’re wife’s only son is not the Son of God who can make happen anything He wishes. If Jesus wanted to go unnoticed, it would be so. If He wanted His parents to not notice His absence for some hours, it would be so.
“The juggling of definitions of words, and the relying on traditions of vain men, do not prove that Joseph and Mary slept in separate beds for their entire married lives.”
I relied on no “vain men”. The Church is not a vain man, but Body of Christ. I suggest you actually deal with what I posted rather than make things up. I never relied on vain men.
“To this ‘always a virgin’ matter, I believe Paul would say: “Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith; so do”. 1 Tim. 1:4”
Right, don’t make things up then like claiming I relied on vain men when I didn’t. That would be making up a fable. DOn’t do it. Heed the very verse you cited. Avoid hypocrisy. It’s not hard.
Her parents, St. Anne and St. Joachim were the ones who presented her at the temple at the age of three for learning along with the males. (Imagine that in today’s society!)
When she became of age she did choose to be a dedicated virgin. A lot of this is cooroborated in the letters of the Early Church Fathers.
Yes, I work with many Orthodox Jews. I’m well aware of how they name their children after a relative that has deceased.
(Don’t be confused by my name of “Country Gal” - I actually work in a very diverse area, for a very prestigious organization that attracts the best of the best from all over the world, and I do have a pretty impressive education. But, I count it as nothing in comparison to Christ)
Thanks for your great insight.
I believe God would not have a one time use for Mary then discard her. She was with Jesus to the Cross and is with us today. “Behold your mother”.
I’m a little late here but this seems logical to me. God would not have a one time use for Mary then discard her. She was with Jesus to the Cross and is with us today. “Behold your mother” was directed to John says it all.
**she was just the Mother of God. Jesus is God. Mary is His mother.**
You agree that Mary had no creative input in the making of the soul, since that is only God’s ability to create. The indwelling Spirit of God is what was, and is, divine about Jesus Christ. The Lord’s words in John 14:7-11 make that abundantly clear.
You RCs regularly point to Peter’s revelation of the Christ. In Acts 10:36-43 he is in full preaching mode telling the gentiles who Jesus Christ is, with verse 38 explaining where the Christ received his divinity: “How God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was WITH him.” And just like Peter’s sermon in Acts 2, there is no mention of Mary in the entire passage.
**She also had to suffer her heart being pierced.**
Literally??
**She endured quite a bit.**
Indeed she did! And later, she also was in the upper room tarrying for the promise of the Holy Ghost. She had to have it too.
**There were no other children of Mary - that’s why Jesus alone was called the son of Mary in the New Testament.**
The Word does not say Jesus ALONE was the son of Mary. Jesus Christ is the primary subject of Mark 6:3. Mary and the siblings are referenced to, in order to make the connection, to who these people were hearing speak. I’ve been introduced as ‘Ruth’s son’ many times, even though I have two brothers,....because....I was the subject of the conversation.
**Which just proves my point. If you’re saying that they lost their “ONLY the MOST IMPORTANT child EVER born on the planet” because of other children then Jesus could not have been all that important after all, right?**
Jesus was the oldest, and well able to walk along without supervision, if mom and dad had their hands full. The additional children only enhances Mary’s resume’. She didn’t give birth to one, but a total of 7 or more, and raised them all.
My wife says her motherly instincts would not have overlooked the location of her ONLY child for an ENTIRE day. She says that, “Yeah, you load me down with an infant and some toddlers, and I could possibly be so occupied I’d not notice my oldest child missing in the crowd.”
**Mary and Joseph probably assumed He was with another relative in the caravan since that’s how things were done.**
Really. So you have Mary and Joseph walking all day like they’re on a date, only one child to worry about, and don’t think take a gander until evening to find their only son. You’re painting Mary to be a less than concerned mother. I think her hands were full of kids to care for.
I think the issue for any protestant sect to explain is why they accepted such teachings for at least 1,500 years and then ‘determined’ that it was no longer valid. Again not a bash but more an explanation as to why I am firmly rooted in my Catholic faith - which I believe is a response to your initial question.
I do sense you are on a spiritual journey. That is always inspiring to observe. I will pray for you and wish you much success in your journey!
You wrote:
” And just like Peter’s sermon in Acts 2, there is no mention of Mary in the entire passage.”
There doesn’t have to be. Again, scripture doesn’t contain all truths. It was never meant to.
“The Word does not say Jesus ALONE was the son of Mary.”
Actually it does. Jesus is called the son of Mary. No one else is. Also, Jesus, dying on the cross, gives Mary to John and no one else. There were no siblings to Christ.
“She didn’t give birth to one, but a total of 7 or more, and raised them all.”
No, she had one son - Jesus Christ.
“My wife says her motherly instincts would not have overlooked the location of her ONLY child for an ENTIRE day. She says that, “Yeah, you load me down with an infant and some toddlers, and I could possibly be so occupied I’d not notice my oldest child missing in the crowd.””
And as I said - if your son was God - you wouldn’t simply forget Him no matter how many children you had. You would, however, if He wished to stay behind and be forgotten in His Father’s house for some time.
“Really. So you have Mary and Joseph walking all day like they’re on a date, only one child to worry about, and don’t think take a gander until evening to find their only son.”
I don’t think they worried - for they believed Jesus to be with family.
“You’re painting Mary to be a less than concerned mother.”
No, I’m portraying God to be God and Mary to trust He would stay with His cousins and friends.
“I think her hands were full of kids to care for.”
Nope. Not a single one - just as God has always taught, and all orthodox Christians have believed, for 2,000 years.
I suppose pride of tradition through the centuries would make one think no other way. The Mary adoration is big business; lots of images, trinkets, etc. Just like the big business that the silversmiths had concerning Diana of the Ephesians.
**..just as God has always taught..**
Here’s what God taught, and still does teach: The Christ said, “Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body THOU hast prepared me........I come to do thy will O God”. No mention of Mary the mother by name, there or anywhere else in the epistles. Yet you folks probably mention her name 10 to 1 over Jesus’ name.
**..and all orthodox Christians have believed, for 2,000 years.**
Jesus said “few there be that find it”.
Remember honor your mother or father. He wanted a mother so came through a mother into creation. He could of done it another way but did not but as a human/flesh. He honors her. He can not sin. Period.
Praise Jeus and as the angel declared Hail Mary!!!
Amen!!
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