Saul And The Charismatics...

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

I haven’t really paid attention in church as to whether women do it more or men but based on my recollection, it is women.

- Do women speak anything in the assembly, let alone tongues?

1Co 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

- Are women teachers of doctrine any place, let alone in the assembly (or on the internet)? (There is no feminine Greek word for teachers of doctrine. Not a NT concept.)

1Ti 2:11-14 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

- Does a woman pray or prophesy anywhere without being covered to demonstrate her submission in authority under God, Christ, and the man -- as viewed by humans and good/bad angels (even on the internet)?(Her hair is as a garment, not as her cover/badge of submission to spiritual authority)

1Co 11:5-6 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

- Are women ever instructors? Sophronizers of young women (not didaskaloi)? Personified examples of good things (adjective)?

Tit 2:3-5 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Just a few notes -- God's spiritual gift of gender and maturity in the Company of the Committed --

Discernment IS essential.

Indeed, that is true -- greater discernment goes with greater spiritual maturity -- not as a result of intellectual development:

1Co 2:14-16 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. We can and ought to develop the mind of The Christ:

Php 2:5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This involves death to self, to Sin as a a master, and to the world; to humbleness to humans and meekness toward The God, fearing Him and walking obediently in His Ways.

This is discernment, is it not?

A church I used to attend a number of years ago had a few couples who were really into the "holy laughter" ministry of Rodney Howard-Browne. If anyone dared to speak against anything he said, their answer was a stern, "Touch not God's anointed!".

That kind of reaction right there is a red flag that something is wrong. When the knee jerk reaction is to turn around and attack the person questioning someone or some teaching, there IS a problem.

The appropriate reaction would be to thank the person for their concern and prayerfully consider whether they have a point or not and see something you missed.

Scriptural support would go a lot further than a rebuke. That rebuke smacks of a manipulation technique used to make people back off by intimidating them.

FWIW, I don't see ANY Scriptural support for the holy laughter kind of movement so don't consider it legitimate, as with any other of these *movements*, including the *Toronto Blessing*. I've heard enough about that to know that I don't like it.

- Do women speak anything in the assembly, let alone tongues?

So women are not allowed to talk at all in your church? Can they sing, too? Or do you relegate them to the back room somewhere and hand them duct tape for their mouths when they walk in the door?

Can't have any of that women talking in church stuff, you know. Does that apply to children as well? Boys can talk but girls can't?

I have a real issue with women pastors for the reasons given in Scripture. I also see that as being a response to men in the church abdicating their role of spiritual leadership in the church. The only justification I can see in ordaining women is to allow them access to hospitals for visitation privileges that are usually reserved for clergy.

But if you're going to demand absolute and strict adherence to the above verses, then the only conclusion one can reach is that women in your church are not permitted to utter one word from the time they enter for services, until the time they leave. When they are in church assembling for any reason, they can't talk. No socializing allowed at all. No women employed by the church for administrative assistant work, because that requires them to talk.

That IS what it says; no speaking in the assembly for women, and likely girls as well.

For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
(2 Corinthians 4:16)

Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
(Ezekiel 36:25-27)

I don’t know what Charismatics or even Baptists you may talk to but the ones I know-both Baptist and Charismatic subscribe to the verses above. God puts his Spirit into his children, and though his Spirit “ does not refer to himself” he works to “search out the deep things of God and to bring them to mind”. These “things” will never be out of alignment with the Bible.

The Spirit also helps us to pray even when we don’t know quite what to pray, with sighs and groanings too deep for words”. The prayers of both Baptists and Charismatics I have heard are nevertheless “outward directed” to the Father above and are done in Jesus’ name as He has commanded.

Perhaps you have run across some of the more modern “fallen out of the Way” Charismatics, the posting Thread speaks of.

That IS what it says; no speaking in the assembly for women, and likely girls as well.

There are assemblies in which these standards are observed. In them both the men, women, and children seem to me to exhibit a greater maturity. This is the kind of church I go to, and prefer, as they seem more willing to take Biblical instruction. This does not seem to produce robots -- it fosters the growth of thoughtful, effective disciples who take their relationship with The King quite seriously.

The silence phase really seems to apply when the assembly is in session at The Lord's pleasure, not necessarily before or after. But I suppose you know that, and perhaps find it difficult to arrive at a creative acceptance of the admonition offered by The Holy Spirit.

What the ekklesia is, is citizens of a kingdom called out, summoned by the king to deliberate on community issues. Here one might note that singing is recommended and approved for all, with public prayer and addresses from the sacred desk or from the floor being within the purview not merely of a pastor, but of all qualified men. What this indicates is that no excuse is accepted for the men to abdicate their spiritual responsibilities to go hunting or fishing, etc; thus relegating religious matters to the distaff side.

Women have a very great responsibility in instructing other, especially younger women, in honoring their Biblical expectations and duties that fall outside of the men's experience. This would be done outside the greater, full public assembly. For how is a man supposed to show a woman how to love her husband? He can't, really. On the other hand, the occasion to congregate, to publicly worship, and to learn and teach Bible doctrines is reserved to the Lord's expectations of the leadership of men.

But the bottom line of your concern is that there are a couple of questions and an observation to contend with:

(1) How much of Biblical truth is one going to accept and how much of the world's practices is one going to reject?
(2) When, as an example, did Mother Eve demonstrate that she was in the transgression -- was it when her lips started moving?
(3) Shouldn't her proper reaction have been to call her husband to deal with the Deceiver?

With full respect --

He has no extra-Biblical voice today. (imardmd1)

What do you mean by this? For instance, do you believe that God can warn someone in a dream? (Tramonto)

There is a saying, and I believe it is Scriptural:

Without the Bible, the Spirit is mute;
without the Spirit, the Bible is powerless.

Do _you_ believe that God can warn someone in a dream? I believe that The God can do anything good and righteous that He wants. But He has chosen certain limits that He has chosen in dealing with communication to mankind.

Perhaps you can supply a direct, unquestionable indication that He now uses Special Revelation or prophecy outside His Bible to communicate heretofore unknown truths? It would be interesting to hear. I believe that the Holy Ghost can raise your alertness to be aware of situations where your God-guided judgment must be brought into play.

I don't know if this is an answer --

Need to get to some other writing tasks . . . still . . . to answer your queries a bit.

“for the VASTLY DRAMATIC move of Holy Spirit ahead in these END TIMES.”

(time for another free association line of questioning, but not against you) ??

Priests of Baal vs Elijah, but on a world wide scale?

Yeah . . . something like that . . . particularly when the TWO WITNESSES appear, if not before. At least on a regional? scale.

Moses rod/serpent swallowing up the rods/serpents of pharoah’s priests?

Yeah . . . only with some interesting modern and unthought-of twists . . . like what . . . let me think . . .

--A teen praying and an evil general or other ruler upended on his head . . . when he protests, turn him inside out.

--Leaders eaten of worms instantly on CNN prime time.

--Elite's bunkers being caved in or blown up from prayer.

--Elite's tube trains crashing head-on at unreal speeds.

--conclaves of Believers having a dome of protection over them from prayer and loving relationships across denominational boundaries.

--Weapons fired at Believers having the bullets or forces returned to the firing folks.

--Banquets in the presence of believer's enemies while the enemies starve helplessly watching--perhaps all the way to the bones only left while other enemies not so close watch in shock.

--Lying leaders and spokespersons on CNN etc. in prime time finding the more they talked the longer and more forked their tongues became until there was a 6" red forked tongue hanging out of their mouths and they couldn't talk any more.

--Death camp leaders and evil personnel went to effect deaths on their massed prisoners only to find they were the ones who died and the prisoners were liberated supernaturally.

--Beleivers surrounded by enemies woke up the next morning to find all the enemies dead and angelic forces visibly surrounding them protectively.

--walking on water whenever needed
--food multiplied whenever needed
--water out of rocks whenever needed
--transported BY HOLY SPIRIT supernaturally whenever needed
--"light sabers" out of hands and fingers as fitting
--snakes sent to harm believers returning to kill those who sent them.

--poisons given to believers not harming them but being mysteriously in the next drink of those sending the poisons.

--Wild animals tearing unbelievers to pieces and like pets with believers.

--Angelic assisted personal flight above situations as fitting.

--spoken words of believers being as sound weapons against enemies.

--Holy Spirit muffling of sound weapons used against believers.

--Mind control waves and technologies not working on believers and frying the brains of those who employed them, instead.

--Animals being sent by believers through enemy lines to deliver verbal death sentences to leaders. Imagine a mouse or a sparrow declaring to a demonized general or governor--YOU AND YOUR EVIL DEEDS AND ALL YOUR JUNIOR LEADERS WILL DIE WHEN THIS SENTENCE ENDS. And it's done.

--Arms of evil doers fall off as they reach to strike believers when their hand hits a force field around the head of the believers.

--Enemies shooting at believers find that the whole enemy squad or army has shot all its own feet totally off.

Enemy leaders ordering guillotine murders of believers find that they and 100 of their Jr leaders heads are miraculously sliced off for every 1 believer's head.

etc.

and

Revelation 6 and 7 and 14(the two harvests)

I don't have any great insight on that. Sometimes I've wondered if there will be several harvests, waves of harvests.

and

a question of the timing of the rapture as it relates to the end of Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14.

Again . . . sorry. I don't have any great insight on that either. And, again, I've wondered if there might be several "Raptures" in waves.

The end of Chap 7 folks have historically been considered martyrs, IIRC.

I don't think anyone has a full picture of what God will do with the Israeli 144,000 in Chap 14.

and

“greater things than these things will ye do...”?

See above . . . LOL.

I think the greater things will be unheard of and unimagined miraculous things as well as masses of Salvations gathering folks into the Kingdom of God out of impossible situations.

I think the best Sci-Fi and supernatural flavored adventure and martial arts movies will be tame compared to what will literally be transpiring in the END TIMES on a daily basis once things get really kicked off.

What do y'all think?

IOW, no, the women are not permitted to speak at all inside the church and it sounds like singing is out, too

This does not seem to produce robots -- it fosters the growth of thoughtful, effective disciples who take their relationship with The King quite seriously.

A Stepford church....

So those who don't do it your way are not spiritually mature and don't take their relationship with the Lord seriously? How legalistic.

And how wrong you are.

Actually, church would be better off if everyone toned it down some, but since Scripture is silent on when the period of silence is to be observed, then restricting it to just worship is a matter of YOUR church's interpretation, which is no different than another church *allowing* women to speak during the services, and by that I mean simply utter ANY words, not preaching speaking.

Here one might note that singing is recommended and approved for all, with public prayer and addresses from the sacred desk or from the floor being within the purview not merely of a pastor, but of all qualified men.

If Scripture says women are to be silent in churches, where is the chapter and verse exemption for singing?

(1) How much of Biblical truth is one going to accept and how much of the world's practices is one going to reject?

Silence is silence. I see no Scriptural exemptions of the kind your assembly permits. After all, how much of Biblical truth is one going to accept and how much of the world's practices is one going to reject?

(2) When, as an example, did Mother Eve demonstrate that she was in the transgression -- was it when her lips started moving?

Sin entered the world through Adam. It wasn't until HE ate that the eyes of both of them were opened.

(3) Shouldn't her proper reaction have been to call her husband to deal with the Deceiver?

Excuse me? *Call* her husband??? Do you not know your Scripture? Why would she need to call him when he stood there and WATCHED her eat? Where was that male leadership when she ate? Where was that male leadership when Adam heard her misquote the one verse of Scripture God Himself told him?

Genesis3:6-7 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

Eve was deceived. Adam ate deliberately with the full knowledge of the words of God Himself in his mind.

Shouldn't Adam's proper reaction to be to protect his wife and rebuke the serpent himself and correct her misquote of what God told him? And instead he watches her eat and then eats himself. I guess when she didn't fall over dead, he thought it was OK. Nice guy. Let his wife be the guinea pig.

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