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Childish behavior |
Posted on 02/14/2012 4:00:49 PM PST by pastorbillrandles
And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)
I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.
Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …
… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)
I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?
Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.
But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.
Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)
One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.
Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?
False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.
The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.
These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.
Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.
The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.
The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…
At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.
And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!
Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!
“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.
Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,
When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)
The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.
“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.
Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !
Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)
I understand why this is such a critical issue with you, dear Quix, but please know that I am not attacking you. The Holy Spirit has never ceased working and leading in my life nor do I discount God's power and miracles but on this specific area I trust what Scripture clearly says. What you call "prissy junk from hell" is no such thing, but a calm assurance after decades of study in God's Word as well as observation and personal contact with those in the Charismatic movement. I can disagree with you without calling what you do demonic and evil because I have come to know you are sincere and have a heart for the Lord. Your experiences are what you seem to be using to interpret Scripture rather than letting Scripture interpret your experiences.
This is between you and God and it is not my place to tell you what you can and cannot do in your walk with Christ. In the same way, you should not automatically presume those who do not have your same life experiences or see things the same as you do are evil and wrong. I allow that God deals with each of us in his own way, please give us that same consideration.
That is exactly why I doubt the majority of claims to have the "anointing of the Holy Spirit" as demonstrated by signs and miracles. When the Apostles and early disciples went out establishing the church those gifts were used by God to signify authority of their words and teachings. In the same way, those today who use these supposed "powers" as signs of their authority for God, draw believers to their ministries and, if they were genuine, would NEVER have to be faked. What we KNOW from Scripture, is that when the Apostles set out to lead the lost to Christ, their primary purpose in using those gifts was to save souls. Afterward, they established local assemblies of believers and traveled on to the next mission field.
Paul corrected the Corinthians for showing off their "gifts" during their meetings and he told them it was NOT for the believers, but the unbelievers to bring them to Christ. For that reason, I do not believe what "passes" for tongues today - and it IS strange that this one gift is singled out because it is the only one that can be "faked" - simply because it is rarely ever the same experience as that spoken of in Acts, where people hear the Gospel in their own language and come to saving faith in Christ.
Too many false teachers are out there today who use this as a hook to bring people in and they preach an accursed Gospel. That, to me, proves that it is not from God. Like you, I do not discount that God still works miracles today and that is why I do not condemn people - that is the job of the Holy Spirit - I just ask for better discernment, too.
Glad my driving got rerouted for a couple of days. I shall be able to respond tonight, and possibly tomorrow night, as well.
boatbums, since you agree with metmoms, I’ve invited you in this response, and have included the Hebrews 6:1,2 passage you chose to point out.
**Born of water = physical birth.**
That’s man made tradition, in an effort to discount the Lord explicit commands for baptism. The comparison of natural and spiritual birth are clearly explained two chapters earlier: “which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” John 1:13. No mention of water in that verse.
**In context, He is talking about being born physically to Nicodemus.**
No he’s not. Give the Lord credit for knowing that he didn’t have to tell Nicodemas, that for a man to be born of the Spirit, he first had to born naturally.
An interesting fact to consider concerning John 3:5: The is no comma in the phrase “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit”.
**In Matthew, all He commands is that the disciples baptize. He never said that it was a requirement for salvation in that book.**
“He never said..”?
No, he just said to teach ALL nations, baptizing them....
**The passage in Mark is controversial as to its authenticity**
Really? While you’re at it, why don’t you go ahead and place Acts 2:38 in the same questionable authenticity category.
Are you saying that there are no miracles in the church today? I’ll tell you that there are none where there is no faith.
**Therefore I trust that you also hold to the belief that all believers will speak in tongues**
How do you interpret John 3:8? “The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou HEAREST the SOUND thereof, but CANST NOT TELL whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is EVERY ONE that is BORN of the SPIRIT.”
When someone says they accept the Lord as their savior, I understand it, and know where it came from. When Peter and John laid hands on the Samaritans, they received the Holy Ghost. Simon the sorcerer, who had witnessed the miracles that Philip did (and didn’t offer money for that power) offered money to Peter and John for the power to give people the Holy Ghost. Yes, I believe he had witnessed them speaking in tongues. The most unruly member of the body tamed by the Spirit of God. Are there people faking it? No doubt, but they are dealt with, one way or the other.
**Salvation is a GIFT (Eph 2:8-9) and there is nothing you can do to earn it or qualify for it. There is passage after passage in the gospels where Jesus says that all one has to do is believe.**
Do you see your own contradiction......”there is nothing you can do........all one has to do..”?
You have to believe, he made that plain, and a couple of my favorite verses are: He that believeth on me AS THE SCRIPTURE hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) John 7:38,39
**Galatians 2:15-21**
From Romans thru Revelation, those letters were written to the church in that city, and to the church as a whole. Most start out in the first chapter refering to those ‘called to be saints’ or ‘the saints at...’. They are written to people that have already been born again, or people that already know what makes one born again.
While Hebrews doesn’t start out with a similar phrase, the writer reminds them of their beginnings in 6:1,2:
“Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection; not laying AGAIN the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement.”
The people that the writer is talking to already have their ‘foundation’ laid. They followed the ‘principles of the doctrine of Christ’, which happens to include the ‘doctrine of baptisms’.
The logical conclusion is that the emphasis of water baptism in the NAME of Jesus, and it resulting in remission of sins, is that that is when he applies his blood to that persons soul. How else can it remit sins as he says it will.
Dear Brother in Christ, I will explain my thinking on this subject as it applies to the "last days" Paul wrote about in Scripture. And compare them to the "last days" Peter spoke about in Acts 2.
Thanks for your kind reply Dear Sister in Christ.
Peter's "last days" speak of revival, when all ISRAEL will be saved. I don't have my Bible in front of me, but I believe it is Acts 2 or 3 that he references Joel's prophecy of the last days before Christ returns. (Visions, dreams, tongues, etc.)
Are you claiming that Peter's "last days of revival" have run with increasing revival the last 2000 years?
Certainly I believe there will yet be at least another wave of 'revival' before A) The Rapture and/or B) the Great Tribulation. There will also be a great falling away.
And, I believe the children of Israel will be witnessed to by the 2 Witnesses as well as the 144,000.
I personally believe those efforts will be directed primarily toward Israelites. There may be some carry-over toward others who've known the Bible but failed to make the grade spiritually until wayyyyyyy late in the schedule.
Paul's "last days" speak of apostacy. See 2 Tim. (people having itching ears, turning their ears from the truth, following doctrines of deceit, etc.).
I don't know when there has NOT been such goings on. And, certainly this era is INCREASINGLY rife with such stuff. However, GOD WILL STILL LIKELY BRING ABOUT HIS MAJESTIC DEMONSTRATIONS OF HIS POWER; HIS TRUTHS AND HIS REVIVAL prior to lowering the boom wholesale. It's His nature.
The question is, are they speaking of the same "last days"? They can't be. One is speaking of REVIVAL. The other is speaking of APOSTACY.
Of course they can. This church era is a long time. The birth pangs leading up to the Great Tribulation from the formation of Israel to the specific day of the beginning of the Great Tribulation is a long time--decades long.
The Welsh Revival and the Azusa St revival were both against a backdrop of rank apostasy in the culture at large.
God is well able to sweep a region, a State, a Nation, the world with Revival before He lowers the boom horrifically during the Great Tribulation. It might be for a week or a month or 3 months or whatever--He is not limited by world wide apostasy IF HE WANTS TO DO IT 'strongly enough.'
imho, it would be His Nature to trigger a massive last revival; harvest those souls at the peak of their relationships with Him and then let the world sink back into its raging apostasy and go thusly into the Great Tribulation having witnessed a last grand demonstration of His Grace, Mercy and Salvation.
I believe Paul's "last days" refers to the last days of the Church the Body of Christ. Everything we have now is by faith. Not by sight.
Everything? What verse declares that? There is none.
The exhortation is that WITHOUT FAITH, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD. And WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN.
Perhaps you missed my exhortation on receiving the gift of tongues above--BY FAITH.
The LAST DAYS also includes the TRIBULATION PERIOD--when, hopefully, the Church is in Heaven at the Married Supper of The Lamb. And, some have, rightly, I think, asserted that The Tribulation period is designed partly to bring Israel back into intimate relationship with Jehovah and their Authentic Messiah.
And remember, tongues are for a "sign". To who? Israel. But Israel is blinded and set aside during this age of grace. So what good would tongues and other signs be to us? When the Body of Christ is raptured, signs will once again be forefront. Because Israel is forefront. They will be NECESSARY for tribulation saints.
Uhhhhhhhhh hello? Is it your impression that demons and demonic demonstrations have been on vacation the last 2000 years?
Is it your impression that Christians have been expected to battle demonic forces IN THEIR FLESH?
Is it your impression that Christians are called to wage war with principalities & powers in high places spiritually neutered with their portion of Holy Spirit's miraculous potency in the closet or 'gone fishing?'
That's definitely NOT my Biblical understanding by a great long shot.
And that's DEFINITELY NOT BEEN MY EXPERIENCE either. It has frequently taken all the praying in tongues, praying for healing; praying for supernatural assistance of various types etc. to do whatever God was calling me to do in various situations.
My understanding of Scripture is that tongues are for believers in some respects/contexts and unbelievers in others.
So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.
That sounds like for unbelievers, period, I assume many would think. Not so fast. Stay tuned.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
.
Folks who point to I Cor 13 as a rationalization for Cessationism must not have their thinking caps on. For their shabby argument to hold a drop of water, they’d have to consider that INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE HAS ALSO ALREADY PASSED AWAY. . . . that we fully know GOD AND EACH OTHER 100% thoroughly and completely. Cue laughing gif.
Intelligibility in Worship
1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
Hmmmmmmm Is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all.
He’s merely noting that when one is speaking to God only—e.g. when praying in tongues—ONLY GOD UNDERSTANDS. “No one” else understands—which SHOULD take care of the nonsense that tongues CAN ONLY BE known languages of earth.
So, one verse is emphasizing one type of tongue AND INTERPRETATION and/or a known language in front of unbelievers.
And the other verse is emphasizing a different operation of tongues praying alone to God.
4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves {NOT UNBELIEVERS},
Here we see a verse again emphasizing tongues edifying one’s self—a BELIEVER.
Here we see again . . . clearly . . . for those with eyes to see and ears to hear—PAUL EQUATES the gift of prophecy prophesying in a group with the gifts of tongues AND INTERPRETATION in a group. This passage seems to emphasize tongues and interpretation as well as prophecy edifying both believers and unbelievers.
Sooooo when does tongues help an unbeliever? WHEN there’s interpretation and the unbeliever’s ‘mail is read.’ It also happens when an unbeliever hears a tongues that is his own language and he knows that the speaker does not know his language. This happened with a friend of mine in 3 different Native American tribes on one trip. She just thought she was praying quietly in tongues. Turns out, according to old timers who came up to her afterwards, in each case, she was presenting a summary of the Gospel story in the more ancient and more formal version of each tribal language.
Evidently she should have told the unsaved hearers to ignore the Gospel she’d just shared with them because she was a woman and speaking in tongues. /sarc
Dr Walter Martin—not normally given to applauding such things . . . was touched by a case involving his throat Dr. The Dr had received a message in tongues and interpretation by a couple in a house church prayer meeting about the DR becoming a missionary to Armenia, I think it was. Everything the message in tongues and interpretation shared was true or came true over the following months, to the letter . . . and gave the Dr the confidence to follow his leading to become a powerful missionary to Armenia.
Again—what is the purpose of the tongues—prayer alone to God or ministry to others and the group? Behave accordingly. God uses each accordingly.
That should silence the folks who seemingly mindlessly claim that ALL TONGUES MUST INVOLVED KNOWN LANGUAGES AND INTERPRETATION. Paul just noted that HIS MIND WAS UNFRUITFUL. IT is his spirit that is being built up, edified by Holy Spirit’s conveying the meaning to God via a sequence of sounds Paul does not know as a language.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. {BOY IS THAT AN INCONVENIENT VERSE for cessationists! Sigh} 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue. {OF COURSE. As explained above} 20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written: “With other tongues {INDEED. When they won’t listen to relatively plain Scripture, don’t expect them to listen to sound teaching!} 22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”[e]
See my explanations above. They should be clear enough for those earnestly seeking God’s clarity on such matters.
At this time, they are not necessary for the body of Christ.
REALLY? Who said? The Bible doesn’t say that.
Logic doesn’t say that.
Mankind hasn’t changed.
Satan hasn’t Changed
God hasn’t changed!
Given the lawlessness and massive demonic forces unleashed uniquely in the END TIMES, THE GIFTS OF HOLY SPIRIT ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED FAR MORE NOW THAN EVER IN HISTORY—INCLUDING IN THE ACTS 2 ERA.
All our blessings and inheritances are in the heavenlies. Not on things on this earth.
Where’d you get that notion? Not from Scripture! It’s not in there.
Scripture teaches we are to walk IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS ABUNDANT LIFE, IN HIS HEALING, IN HIS EMPOWERING, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL GUIDANCE, IN HIS SUPERNATURAL PROVISION . . . SILVER AND GOLD HAVE I NONE—IN THE NAME OF JESUS—GET UP AND WALK . . . THESE SIGNS SHALL FOLLOW THEM THAT BELIEVE . . .
!NOW!
That Scripture does NOT SAY “shall follow them that believe after they get to Heaven.”
Who needs such in heaven??? Sigh.
There’s no need for healing there!
There’s no need for supernatural provision there.
There’s no need for a banquet in the presence of our enemies there.
There’s no need for supernatural guidance there.
That's why Paul tell us not to be concerned with things on this earth.
Oh, really? There’s no evidence in Scripture that’s why Paul said such a thing!
Paul talks about keeping our eyes on Christ . . . on The Prize . . . and not getting bogged down by the dreadful and deceitful things of the earth. He’s talking about our proper focus while running the race. That has nothing to do with spiritual gifts . . . except perhaps that those who keep their eyes on Jesus are more powerfully anointed in their spiritual giftings.
We have the perfect Word of God,
Actually, we don’t. We have flawed translations. The original autographs are not available.
the COMPLETE REVELATION, as He has seen fit to give us. We know the beginning, the middle, and the end.
Yeah, we have sufficient Word to establish and maintain our end of an intimate walk with God well able to land us in Heaven by His Grace, Blood and Spirit. Though John noted that probably the world could not contain all the books necessary to describe all Christ said and did. And, we do know something of the beginning, middle and end.
However, we do NOT know–from strictly the printed word--who to marry vs who not to marry;
Which house to buy or not buy;
Which job to take or not take;
Which city to move to or not move to;
Which stranger to reach out to with the Gospel or not reach out to;
. . .
What more could be added as extra-prophetic in order to make his final Amen in Revelation be added to?
There’s no need to add rebelliously to Revelation or anything else in Scripture AS ENSCRIPTURATED SCRIPTURE.
However,
Cessationists were CONSISTENT on that score—their churches would never ever hear another sermon. All they’d do is stand up and read Scripture to one another. And if they had anything to say to one another, they’d just quote Bible verses to one another.
Sigh.
I am NOT saying He doesn't perform miracles today. He most certainly does. He heals who He will and He doesn't who He doesn't. It is HIS will, not man's power of laying on of hands that He responds to .
Yes and no. Most times, if hands are NOT laid on . . . or a word of knowledge is not pronounced over someone, they don’t get healed.
God DOES SOMEWHAT restrict His miracles to the operations of His Spirit THROUGH His gifted kids. He chooses to do it that way MOST OF THE TIME. It IS HIS design. THAT IS HIS delight. CERTAINLY IT IS ALL HIS DOING directly and through His kids. Certainly everything good comes from above as the Bible says.
We are told that we know how to be hungry and how to be full, how to be with and how to be without, how to be on top of the world, and how to be down in the ditch (so to speak), and that it is ALL through Christ strengthening us that we live this life in this age of grace.
AMEN. TRUE. Doesn’t have anything to do with minimizing the Gifts of Holy Spirit in this age, however.
Paul said that he would that ALL SPEAK IN TONGUES. Rationalizing that away is NOT BIBLICAL.
I pray you understand what I'm saying here. God Bless! smvoice
158 posted on Monday, February 20, 2012 4:17:09 PM by smvoice
I think I did. I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.
No, it is NOT a logical conclusion that water baptism is when the blood of Christ is applied to a soul and sins are remitted. To be baptized "for the remission of sins" simply means it is symbolic of what happened by faith. Jesus said his blood was shed "for the remission of sins" (Matt. 26:28) and in Acts 10:43 it says, "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." Ephesians 1:7 says, "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins, according to the riches of his grace". Remission of sins means the forgiveness of sins. It is ONLY by faith - the act of will that believes and trusts in the promises of God. Belief, then is not a "work" in the sense of it being a deed or act, but one of receiving the gift of God. The way you are saying it, it sounds like until one is physically water baptized, he is not spiritually saved. Add to that the contention that even those who ARE water baptized are not saved unless there is saving faith first.
Titus 3:5-7 says, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
The act of being water baptized is a "righteous" thing we should do, because it is an act of obedience demonstrating an identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection, but the act itself is NOT what saves us. The "washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit" has been poured out on us through God's grace when we first believed - it is not even talking about water baptism here.
You can believe what you want, of course, but know that any good works or deeds added to faith makes salvation by grace void and changes it to merit based. That is exactly why those religions that teach water baptism is required to be saved will also add other works into the mix in order to STAY saved. And no matter how you cut it, that is no longer grace that saves. One more thing...do you really believe that water baptism "saves" a person? Can they become "unsaved" by their deeds? If someone has accepted Christ as Savior but gets killed on his way to be water baptized, is he saved anyway in your religion?
I know you're probably glad to be off the road for a bit. We had some trucker friends and they HATED winter driving. Thanks for including me in the discussion.
Quix, thanks, well written. You are a blessing.
= = =
REF
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2846555/posts?page=164#164
THANKS for your kind reply.
Prayers for the People has a new header, “The Time Appointed: The Just Shall Live By Faith”
Swiftly approaches the day when all will not continue as it has since long before the fathers fell asleep. Many are the mockers, few are the just who live by faith. Behold, the warnings have been proclaimed, “A day has been stored for judgment! Repent!” Dear Faithful, do not weary or fret at the works of the unjust, the time appointed comes, judgment will be rendered.
The LORD has not looked the other way, nor is HE slow to respond. The LORD is patient; not wishing that any soul should perish, but that all would come to repentance. Repent!
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Habakkuk 2:3
Prophetic revelation insures the reality of fulfillment; in time all things divinely uttered by the HOLY SPIRIT must come to pass. The WORD was declared before the foundations were laid, HE is KING, HE has won, and HE will rule for all eternity. Sin must be judged and the wicked will be trodden in their wickedness, do not doubt this.
Do not be disheartened, do not fear, and do not worry about tomorrow.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written,
The just shall live by faith. Romans 1:17
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http://www.prayersforthepeople.com/
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The current phase of the moon is now on the home page of that site also, fyi. Have a good Tuesday. Joya
I should have said, that was a QUOTE.
Link to the actual article
http://www.prayersforthepeople.com/id137.html
THX THX
Here is a link to John G Lake ministries and Curry Blake. http://www.jglm.org/
Curry Blake has a very interesting and Scriptural perspective on healing and the gifts.
John G. Lake Ministry Divine Healing Technician Training Course
http://spiritlessons.com/Documents/Healing/JGL/JGL_Ministries.htm
It's a long session to listen to but has a really balanced perspective on the gifts and their practice in the church today. While I don't agree with 100% of what he says, I believe that he's absolutely right about much of our theology surrounding healing, at least
• It’s obvious the *last days* prophecy referred to in Joel was fulfilled in Acts 2. Uhhhhhh . . . depends on what one means by “fulfilled.” Acts2 was the INTRO, the BEGINNING of the CHURCH ERA.
Acts 2 and Paul in I Cor 12-14 are indicating what is expected to be normative for Christian life and witness IN THE CHURCH ERA.
We now have the Holy Spirit indwelling the hearts of believers everywhere since He has been poured out on us. I don’t think that that can be used to justify the claims of the apparent sudden rash of signs and wonders people are claiming.
I don’t know that the authentic ministry and manifestations of Holy Spirit NEED justification, per se.
I don’t know what you mean by a “sudden rash of signs and wonders.” Signs and wonders have been going on from well before John Wimber and will be continuing to escalate in frequency and dramatic flavor up to the end.
GOD IS NOT ABOUT TO leave all the fireworks to satan.
How could anyone think that God Holy Spirit begins dramatically in Acts 2 and ends DURING THE MOST CLIMACTIC TIME IN THE HISTORY OF ALL CREATION with a
And I hate to have to qualify it also, but that does NOT mean I don’t think they happen. It’s just that I don’t think they happen to the degree that many people claim. I think there’s a real lack of discernment about when it’s genuine and when it’s not that’s the problem.
OF COURSE discernment is needed.
Yet, y’all seem to make it sound like DISCERNMENT is ONLY needed with dramatic manifestations ostensibly of Holy Spirit’s doing.
Nonsense. There’s plenty of discernment needed at the frozen chosen congregations by the dozen. Do you actually believe that such ministers ONLY get the Holy Spirit stuff wrong? LOL.
Folks who refuse to hear Holy Spirit about gifts of The Spirit get a lot of things wrong. And, even when they get a lot right, there’s plenty of spiritual self-righteousness; organizational idolatry and the like . . . plenty stuff to need discernment about.
What confuses me a bit is . . . the operation of the gifts of Holy Spirit tends to attract tons of assaults from satan’s crew as well as their allies in denominations hostile to such. What on earth are folks who supposedly BELIEVE in Holy Spirit’s work in this era throwing so many rocks at such operations?
Have the RC’s & Replacementarians et al taken a vacation from their rock throwing that we need to start throwing rocks at ourselves?
Sigh.
I think Curry Blake is accurate on a lot of that stuff, too.
Good. Though I don’t know how much we’d disagree about “what Scripture clearly says.”
What you call "prissy junk from hell" is no such thing, but a calm assurance after decades of study in God's Word as well as observation and personal contact with those in the Charismatic movement.
Uhhhh . . . depends on what we’re talking about.
IF we are talking about the cessationist contention that the Biblical gifts of Holy Spirit in I Cor 12-14 and Acts 2 have CEASED and do not operate in our current era . . .
THAT believe and doctrine IS from the pit of hell. It would be unloving to avoid telling anyone that truth. That truth can set folks free and bring folks closer to God.
Am happy to give folks respect for their earnest Biblical walks with God.
I’m not very willing to respect hogwash and certainly not hogwash from hell.
I can disagree with you without calling what you do demonic and evil because I have come to know you are sincere and have a heart for the Lord.
Your experiences are what you seem to be using to interpret Scripture rather than letting Scripture interpret your experiences.
Sigh. Again . . . that is a nonsensical distinction.
1. That’s not what I do.
2. There is NO AWARENESS THAT THERE EVEN IS A BIBLE
APART FROM one’s EXPERIENCE of the paper and ink.
Pretending that one’s EXPERIENCE of Holy Spirit’s workings is worthless EXPERIENCE while one’s EXPERIENCE of paper and ink is flawless EXPERIENCE
IS unmitigated, duplicitous, double-standard, irrational NONSENSE.
This is between you and God and it is not my place to tell you what you can and cannot do in your walk with Christ.
Thanks. In the same way, you should not automatically presume those who do not have your same life experiences or see things the same as you do are evil and wrong. I allow that God deals with each of us in his own way, please give us that same consideration.
True, to a point. God does NOT support doctrines of demons from hell. It is not loving to flatter, molly-coddle and excuse doctrines of demons from hell. If you expect me to do that, you will be greatly disappointed.
I would expect any loving Brother or Sister to tell me anything they saw me doing or saying that Scripture would indicate was a demonic doctrine from hell.
I appreciate your kind reply.
Nevertheless, the counterfeits of tongues, healings, miracles, . . . the sham whatever does not truly negate the authentic. The authentic will always rise to the top, sooner or later.
I’m super thankful for tongues and what it has meant in my relationship to God and my ministry to others.
I’m not abused by abuses of any kind pretending to be kosher Christian. And there are plenty abuses of Scripture in the frozen chosen churches as much as in the Pentecostal churches. They are just of a different, less flashy variety.
So love never fails, but tongues - the supernatural power of tongues - will cease just as prophecies and partial knowledge will. Why Paul spoke of tongues and not healing, I don't know other than it is something God always will do.
Because he said "prophecies" and "knowledge" is why I believe it is speaking of the completed revelation of God - the Bible. No new prophecy or unrevealed knowledge was omitted from it.
Sounds like a flying leap of illogic, to me. In I Cor 13 . . . INCOMPLETE KNOWLEDGE WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE CEASED for that passage of Scripture to have been FULFILLED. Therefore, using I Cor 13 as a justification to claim ANY CESSATION of Holy Spirit’s gifts is GROSSLY BOGUS.
Perhaps folks are different where you are . . . but all the even authentic Christians I know are NOT omniscient, like God—about ANYthing. They don’t even know ALL the FULL KNOWLEDGE about THEMSELVES! I doubt you do, either.
Some people even say that tongues is some kind of "heavenly" language, the language of angels, but I know it can't be that simply because Paul said it would "be stilled" or stop. Obviously we will all speak some kind of language in heaven, but it will not be the same as the tongues in I Cor. 13.
Uhhhhhh . . I don’t think that assumption is well thought-out. Paul is talking about the gifting of tongues and of tongues and interpretation as gifts of Holy Spirit for the Church Age being ended—NOT necessarily any of the language(s) tongues speakers used—including any “Heavenly languages.”
However, I do agree that too much emphasis is placed on the "showy" outward demonstrations of tongues - which Paul said was the least of the gifts. Each person will answer to God for however he uses the gifts God gives and all of them are for the ultimate glory of God.
Plenty true.
Just as folks where buttons were labeled unChristian began to wear flashy Chinese frog knot closures . . . Man has an infinite capacity to be vain-glorious; self-righteous; arrogant; given to grand standing; power-mongering; !!CONTROLLING!!; preening; prancing; pontificating; etc. etc. etc. The counterfeit never negates the authentic. It only makes the counterfeiter subject to judgment.
Are you following another gospel of a different kind than that proclaimed by Paul?
your link re the Kingdom of God vs The Kingdom of Heaven.
1. I’ve been discipled by some wonderful men. . . . most faithfully and en-durably by One from Galilee.
2. Have long been faithful to the Gospel of Jesus Christ whom Paul preaches.
3. Evidently you have not read Cessationist Randy Alcorn’s well done HEAVEN.
4. The distinction between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God is a moot one relative to the issues related to Cessationism. Slick dodge, though.
5. The fact remains . . . The coming Kingdom of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is a most plausible focus of the I Cor 13 mention of “when that which is perfect comes.”
6. You might consider returning to your disciple. Seems to me some things in your theology were left undone or need a tune up or overhaul. Though I'd suggest finding one more Biblically grounded, this time.
You need to be really careful about applying the wisdom of man or the wisdom of the world, or human reasoning to Scripture.
Galatians 3:1-14 1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?
7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”— 14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.
You may be sincere, but you’re been very misled on the issue of water baptism. You have imposed works (water baptism) upon salvation. That’s a serious no, no my friend! You’re adding to the proper understanding of God’s word. You’re involved in an errant sect.
And folks who refuse to hear the Holy Spirit inspired Holy Scriptures about their "favorite" gift tend to also get other doctrines wrong, too. Why is there such a fierce defense of tongues? Even to the point of accusing fellow Christians - who agree on ALL the major tenets of the Christian faith - as being pawns of Satan or in league with the enemies of Christ? There is something strange going on whenever this one issue is in dispute and it tells me that those caught up in it are held hostage by their experiences.
When I spoke about judging experiences by Scripture rather than the other way around, what I so earnestly wanted to communicate is that, no matter what our experiences are, are we able to stand back from them and see them objectively in the light of God's word? Apparently, some can't. If someone claimed to have the gift of healing, wouldn't their experiences prove to them and others if, that was indeed their gift, it was genuine? Now, I know that alleged "faith healers" have fabricated and faked healings in order to dupe supporters but, if I came to them for physical healing from, say, blindness, wouldn't I know if I had truly been healed? If I could go from darkness to clear vision because of their laying hands upon me, then I could verify that had happened. Yet, how many of these charlatans have huge "revivals" and tent meetings and people line up 2 blocks long to be healed and they go away disheartened because they went away no better than they came? Their faith is blamed for why they weren't healed instead of who really is to blame - the false teacher giving false hope.
Why is it that these same teachers also claim other gifts such as "slaying people in the Spirit", giving them the gift of tongues, "holy laughter" and other things that are nowhere found in Scripture that are showy and heap praise upon the preacher rather than the Lord? In the same way, tongues can be and are used as a badge of spirituality when Paul said it was the least of the gifts and the others should more earnestly be desired. The Corinthians were admonished by Paul because they were doing just that and his corrections to them were NOT to praise them but to get them to see the seriousness of seeking after glory that belongs to God alone.
Will there be an outpouring of the Spirit in the last days? Yes, Scripture says so. But does this mean He will do that in ways that the devil can fake? I do not believe He will. Will the two witnesses and the 144,000 be given supernatural abilities to lead people to the Messiah? Absolutely! But this will not be a time where it will need to be faked in order to convince people simply because it will be REAL! Signs and wonders WILL happen in those last days - to me, that is speaking of the Tribulation - but we are not there yet. And God will not allow Satan to counterfeit his power - it will be impossible for him to do so anyway. Everything Satan ever did was try to imitate God and every time he failed. He will ALWAYS fail. God's gifts are genuine. But they are HIS to give and to remove when their purpose is fulfilled and when he says that certain ones HAVE BEEN, I accept that no matter what my experiences may say.
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