Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

[boatbums]

This perfectly completed (plenary, infallible) revelation was not available until about 100 AD, long after most of "them that heard" (Heb. 2:3,4) had passed into Glory.

That is also my understanding of that term, "that which is perfect". The "sign" gifts of the first century were certainly given as proof of authority of the words the disciples were preaching. Once the New Testament, thus the entire Bible, was completed and its authority was established, there was no longer the need for those sign gifts. We now know fully the doctrines God desired for us to know and the Holy Spirit within each believer is who leads us into all truth within the word of God.

Now does God still heal miraculously? Yes, that never ceased, and is available to all who pray asking for God's will but it is NOT a power given to a specific person in order to demonstrate his authority and therefore the truth of his message. There is far too much fakery and charlatans out there today for people to be tricked by those with a false gospel.

The same with the gift of tongues/languages. Can God give a person that ability in certain situations? Of course. But is what passes for that sign gift today authentic? Does everyone who "speaks in tongues" really have that gift where a person who doesn't speak a language all of a sudden can? I would have to say no. What passes as tongues mostly today is NOT known languages but a garbled, made-up, loosely resembling something or some kind of noise but NOT a language. Scripture gave specific directions for when and how that gift was to be used and rarely is it followed. Some churches even preach that unless you speak in tongues, you are not saved and some teach it is the ONLY way to "pray in the Spirit", as if only those who have the gift are able to do this.

I agree with you that "that which is perfect" has come and it is the Word of God which is our final authority on doctrines of the Christian faith. Now that Bible translators have translated it into nearly every language in the known world, it IS our authority for truth for everyone.

[boatbums]

Those with an authentic experience with Holy Spirit need never feel a micro-meter down from those with merely an argument.

Can someone have an authentic experience with the Holy Spirit and it NOT be by speaking in tongues? Is that the only way God demonstrates his connection?

[imardmd1]

We are all one in Christ and God has given to the church those that edify the believers within it, all to his glory.

Thank you for your courteous inquiry! It is much easier to converse with another who listens with the idea that you hold him/her in great respect, and who realizes the differences that must be overcome to be of one mind, of one accord!

If one is determined to be conformed to the image of The Son of God's Love, the accommodation of these temporal dissonances can be overcome, with a view toward a pleasing fellowship in Him. I appreciate your tolerance of differences without being disagreeable. In earlier exchanges that you seem to have read through, I am hoping you will see that I had no intention of being a needler, but rather to lift up some warnings suggested by correct application of The God's wise counsel to the so-called "charismatic" phenomenon, as well as to modernistic reinterpretations of the plain sense principles embodied in The Word. In doing so, it is difficult to be both clear and concise, to be both pithy and precise; so the method might come across as seeming to "talk down" in a comment. I hope you understand this.

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Yes, I wholeheartedly subscribe to this summary of Paul's understanding of The God's estimate of our value to him. This is our standing; yet in His sovereignty, he has assigned each of us certain roles, responsibilities, requirements; and furnished us the means to complete our earthly tasks. He had made us equal in value to His care, but not in accountability.

I would like to take up your questions, but will have to postpone my response. But let me say regarding as to supposed changes in cultural norms permitting or demanding changes in application of Bible standards:

The Christ, admonishing Satan, prefaced his Scripture quotations with

"It is written: ..."

This sounds rather weak in English, but in Greek the verb is in the perfect tense, for which the sense is that of an action, once completed but having eternal abiding results. "It stands written, applies now, and will never change!" How does this apply to Biblical standards in today's customs?

Furthermore, be very careful about excercising your freedom to make up your mind on issues. Quoting from Proverbs 3:5-8 --

"... lean not unto thine own understanding ... Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil."

If you want to get a really wise woman's view on behavior in and out of the home, you might seek advice from my discipler's wife and ministry partner by writing to the Happy Heralds website.

http://www.happyheralds.org/

Or, you might ask my daughter-in-law, a godly wife and mother of 10 home-schooled children (will send her email link privately, if you wish and she OKs). Or, you might contact a couple with whom I have been fellow disciples.

So long for now --- be a light to the lost!

[Quix]

Though reared AoG,

I do NOT believe that tongues is the only way one can receive Holy Spirit's messages. I think tongues is used as an added emphatic confirmation for a believer or an extra emphatic sign to the unbeliever--kind of like an exclamation point or a highlighted message.

Christ Himself said MY SHEEP HEAR MY VOICE.

In my experience, God usually speaks to us in the language we normally speak. His still small voice is not in need of translation. The issues are usually 3 fold:

1. Learning to distinguish His voice in peaceableness vs our own mental noise. The Biblical exhortation to FOLLOW AFTER PEACE is a wise one. If we don't feel a peace about what we're hearing--ask for God to bring clarity and his peace as confirmation and wait.

2. Obedience. He tends to wait until we've obeyed what He last said before saying a lot more.

3. Learning to distinguish the seductive voice of satan is not USUALLY as hard as it might sound . . . satan tends to be insistent, pressuring, demanding, hurrying, coercive, etc.

BTW, rarely do I find a cessationist who isn't utterly convinced that their own 'works' oriented, slavish toned tedious mangling of Scripture isn't some sort of greatly higher red badge of courage and righteousness . . . particularly compared to those 'emotional experiencers.'

Some seemingly unthinkingly try and insist that THEY flawlessly or near flawlessly are protected by the pristine TRUTH OF SCRIPTURE vs 'experiencers' being fooled by and addicted to EXPERIENCES outside of SCRIPTURE.

What an idiotic idea. They'd have NO COMPREHENSION THAT THERE EVEN WAS SCRIPTURE apart from their EXPERIENCE of the printed or spoken text! What a farcical dichotomy.

Most earnest believers--actually, in 65 years, I haven't ran across one for whom it was NOT true for--have had the experience where they've been in a longish period of agonized travail over an issue--seeking God's face for a solution or direction or help of some kind--desperate to hear from God.

Finally, one day, they are reading along normally in their time with the Bible and a verse kind of JUMPS OUT AT THEM with a particular word or phrase or sentence very highlighted with a specific meaning for their great need or concern.

The cessationists are loathe to admit that

THAT'S 'extra-Biblical' THAT EXPERIENCE was not an INHERENT PART OF THE TEXT. HOLY SPIRIT ADDED THAT IN ANSWER TO THEIR NEED AT THAT MOMENT.

In terms of tongues, I ALSO BELIEVE HOLY SPIRIT USES IT AS A LESSON AND CHALLENGE--SOMETIMES A BENCH-MARK--IN HUMILITY.

Babbling along in 'gibberish' is not the most dignified thing one can do in front of others. It's a great way to crash one's leaning on the arm of flesh for one's religiosity and spirituality. And, often Holy Spirit seems to virtually require that level and type of humility for some of His added blessings.

Of course, given the perversity of human nature, we can take even something designed to mature us in humility and turn it upside down as an occasion for pride. Holy Spirit tends to leave the proceedings to us, at that point--at least in most respects.

It's a common thing--particularly for the immature and inexperienced--to wander in and out of Holy Spirit's anointing and in and out of the flesh--sometimes in the same narrative message to the group. Discerning folks can tell the difference.

It was traditional in my teens to TARRY FOR THE SPIRIT--HOURS! I did.

I don't think that's necessary. I think it is necessary to be prayed up, confessed up, repented up AND EARNESTLY SEEKING HOLY SPIRIT--GOD'S HIGHEST--FOR MORE OF CHRIST, MORE OF GOD HIMSELF. Then, to TRUST GOD to give bread and not a stone. AND IN FAITH to begin to speak in a sequence of syllables not learned as a language. THEN TO TRUST THAT HOLY SPIRIT IS APPLYING HIS MEANING TO THE SEQUENCE OF SOUNDS.

As in all things, WHATSOEVER IS NOT OF FAITH, IS SIN. IT IS BY FAITH that we trust Holy Spirit to be communicating HIS message via our strange sound sequence. Thankfully, He usually confirms such by a more or less tangible anointing and invigorating electrified sense of His Presence. But not always. That can come and go. And, usually goes after some weeks . . . forcing us to walk by faith in even our experience of 'tongues.'

Many times in counseling and in crisis situations and in deliverance situations, I'd have been lost without praying in tongues, It was while waiting on God AND praying in tongues that the break-through and/or answer came--countless times.

I don't think tongues ought to be made overmuch of. Neither do I think folks ought to rebel against Scripture AND GOD--and QUENCH HOLY SPIRIT. There are unholy and unpleasant consequences when they do--whether they are immediately evident, or not.

[Quix]

It's nice to feel held in respect.

I find it easier to converse with folks who treat Scripture with humility and respect--deeply--vs merely apparently.

And, as I've indicated, I have decreasing tolerance for the demonic doctrine from hell of cessationism.

I see no way to white-wash or excuse it.

It is horrific, damnable and consigns individuals to an unnecessary, destructive and costly degree of attachment from God that is a stench in His nostrils as well.

There are coming dreadful times of great urgency when folks will DESPERATELY NEED to hear from God's voice IMMEDIATELY IN THE SITUATION. The whole idea that it is UNBIBLICAL to do what GOD SAYS HIS SHEEP DO will be very costly to such individuals. And their blood will be laid at the feet of their teachers and disciplers who taught them such a damnable heresy.

BTW, I read much of your linked document about 'that which is perfect has come.'

It was interesting to a point but mostly thoroughly tedious, boring, prissy and inconsequential.

IT also did not touch the issue of CHRIST'S PERFECT KINGDOM being an option.

And, it did not deal with the Aramaic.

More importantly, it doesn't match up with the rest of Scripture on cessationism and the VERY BIBLICAL OPERATION OF HOLY SPIRIT'S GIFTS IN THE ENTIRE CHURCH ERA.

There's not a shred of Biblical support for Holy Spirit taking a vacation after John ran out of ink at the end of Revelation.

There's not a shred of Biblical support for some angelic host or messenger coming down out of Heaven and declaring in 70 AD on June 4th at 13:00

"TWEEEEET! EVERYBODY OUTTA DA POOL. STOP ALL THIS SUPER NATURAL GOD-STUFF. Holy Spirit is now on sabbatical. Y'all have to wrestle with Truth and demons on your own--Christ didn't really mean what He said about The Comforter. Tough tacos. No more swimming in this Church Era Dispensation. Plod along in the flesh in your Christian walk as best you can. Holy Spirit has done all the COMFORTING and leading into All Truth He was scheduled to do. Fooled you! Bye."

What grandiose ignorance gone to seed parading and prancing about as great erudition and scholarly wisdom.

No thanks.

[Cvengr]

Calm down.

The main thrust of cessationism is not to deny God the Holy Spirit, nor to grieve nor quench the Holy Spirit.

Rather it recognizes God the Holy Spirit is very, very active in every believer in their walk with God in the study of His Word.

There is fairly strong theological evidence that the Canon of Scripture has been sealed. This means the present Canon expresses His Word and it is adequate and sufficient for us to perform every good work which God has planned for us to do from eternity past.

It isn’t denied that different believers have different spiritual gifts.

It also is recognized that while we might have the mystery of God and the Father, and the Son, and the Gospel to be revealed to us spiritually, there also are mysteries of lawlessness and iniquity which also exist in the spiritual domain which we do not need for our faith.

Spiritual deception also arises with the appearance of light and a counterfeit gospel. What better way to counterfeit the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, than for demon possession to manifest itself in tongue-like behavior, spiritual communication, and enthralling experience. Such is the New Age way of life, but that is hardly the Christian way of life.

I do not judge all those who claim to have a spiritual gift of tongues, bu I also recognize that there are many spiritual influences which may have demonic roots in an attempt to deceive believers and those who seek God.

I would encourage instead to study Bible doctrine through faith in Christ, so that when exposed to such spiritual persons, they might be tested to discern deception from the Truth.

[Quix]

OF COURSE

there’s the counterfeits of satan. Scripture is clear about that.

However, no one counterfeits a $3.00 bill.

The counterfeit points to the genuine.

Yes, we are to be alert to the enemy’s wiles and counterfeits.

However, our focus is to be elsewhere.

On The Lord Jesus and what HE is SAYING to us . . . for today, this moment. etc.

Thanks for your kind reply.

[Quix]

BTW, Joya,

Here’s an interesting timeline . . .

http://img103.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=409138789_FinalSevenYears_3_122_905lo.jpg

[imardmd1]

http://www.happyheralds.org/Koh-KoG-CMP.htm

[metmom]

Can someone have an authentic experience with the Holy Spirit and it NOT be by speaking in tongues?

I'll give you an unqualified *YES!*. It happened to me.

Is that the only way God demonstrates his connection?

NO! As a matter of fact, there's not one bit of Scriptural support for this teaching that has become so popular these days.

What people don't consider is the fruit of the Spirit, which is better evidence of a genuine filling, that something that can be so easily faked or counterfeited.

[metmom]

boatbums already know a godly wife and homeschool mother.

And it doesn't have to be YOUR way.....

bb, the silence in response to your question here is deafening....."Also, WRT cultural norms, women were supposed to have long hair and not wear clothing that men wore. Do you think this applies in today's time? Do all your women in your assembly have to wear their hair long and not be allowed to wear pants?"

I would lay money on the fact that that is the case. I've been around enough homeschoolers to know the stereotype that is not without plenty of justification. Long hair in a braid, that needs brushing, long denim skirts, and dirty athletic shoes, with the younger girls in the family (about 10 years old for example) , who are not physically mature enough to be balancing a heavy toddler on her hip, doing just that while the mother strolls around, not paying attention to the child she herself bore, but foisting the responsibility of it off onto another child who is physically not able to bear it.

I've seen it waaaaayyyyy too often.

Matter of fact, I've yet to see an exception to this situation when I encounter this type of woman who believes like that.

[metmom]

That is also my understanding of that term, "that which is perfect". The "sign" gifts of the first century were certainly given as proof of authority of the words the disciples were preaching. Once the New Testament, thus the entire Bible, was completed and its authority was established, there was no longer the need for those sign gifts. We now know fully the doctrines God desired for us to know and the Holy Spirit within each believer is who leads us into all truth within the word of God.

There's a problem with consistency of interpretation in declaring that the *sign gifts* have passed away.

1 Corinthians 12:6-11 8 For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

1 Corinthians 12:28-31 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way.

Healings, tongues, interpretations, and miracles are all listed with apostles, prophets, and teachers. Now, if the *sign gifts* have passed away, the others must have too, which means no more teachers. People are too selective about which gifts they consider to have passed away. they cherry pick which ones they like and toss the rest.

It's either all or nothing. Either all the gifts have passed, or none of them have. Cherry picking leads to error.

That said, I see a problem with people depending too much on signs. It may be necessary in some circumstances, but the verse in 1 Corinthians 13 which people use to say the sign gifts have passed is way too loose an interpretation.

[imardmd1]

My suggestion is that if you want to "hear" the voice of The Comforter, you take down your Bible and get under a qualified discipler who has "been there before," and start learning more about the Man whose Kingdom is not of this world. He will testify of The Lord Jesus Christ, (quietly) bringing your entire attention upon The Christ, His Person, and His Work. There is no shortcut to being discipled to learn His Will and His Way. "But whoso looketh into the Perfect Law of Liberty and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." (Jas 1:25)

Are you following another gospel of a different kind than that proclaimed by Paul?

[Joya]

Whoa, Scout! That’s quite a chart. Thank you.

Blessed is the Name of the Lord.
There is strength of the Name of the Lord.
There is power in the Name of the Lord.
There is hope in the Name of the Lord.
Blessed is he who comes in the precious Name of the Lord.

= = = =

REF

http://img103.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=409138789_FinalSevenYears_3_122_905lo.jpg

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for sharing your testimony, dear Quix!

[Joya]

http://www.defendproclaimthefaith.org/music/kh2/Kathleen%20Harris%20-%20In%20the%20name%20of%20the%20lord%20(Love%20found%20a%20way).mp3

[metmom]

That is also my understanding of that term, "that which is perfect". The "sign" gifts of the first century were certainly given as proof of authority of the words the disciples were preaching. Once the New Testament, thus the entire Bible, was completed and its authority was established, there was no longer the need for those sign gifts.

Interestingly, in 1 Corinthians 13 where that verse is found...(1 Corinthians 13:8-11 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.)

The context here doesn't support that the perfection which is coming/has come, is the written word, but rather love. Love is the perfection which has come.

[Zuriel]

Thanks for your inquiry of my position on water baptism. Sorry for the delay, as I’m an OTR driver, and have been resting since getting back home yesterday.

Some folks ask, “where in the OT are the examples or symbols of water baptism?” Well, there are some types and shadows:

Gen. 1:2. “And the earth was without form and void” (no life and nothing to support it, DOA, “buried at sea” so to speak); “and darkness was upon the face of the deep” (buriel is darkness, for sure). “And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” (if the convicting Spirit of God is not present, water baptism is vain ceremony).

In verse 9, God brought dry land into existance and began to bring life from where there was none. Romans 6:4 says “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father (notice Christ didn’t raise himself up, the Father that was in him “doing the works” and left him to die on the cross, raised him from the dead) even so we also should walk in newness of life.” And Col. 2:12 says basically the same thing.

The Flood
Gen 6:5-8. God repented that he had made man, decides to destroy all mankind, and chooses Noah (who could have said “Lord, thanks for asking me to build the Ark, but ask someone else please. I still believe in you though, and will continue to live in a way pleasing to you”. Well, Noah wouldn’t have survived the flood.
2 Peter 3:6 “Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.” What perished? Sin in the form of man. God washed the planet of sin and began again. (Of course, Satan was waiting to defile Noah’s decendents).

Water baptism is buriel with Jesus Christ and was forshadowed in the story of Joseph, who was thrown into a pit to eventually die. A kid of the goats was killed and blood shed to conceal the crime. But, Joseph was lifted out to eventually live a new life of royalty and power. There was no water in the pit, but the buriel symbolism is present, imho.

Baby Moses was as good as dead, but was placed in the river (in the little ark, so he wouldn’t drown), and was brought forth to a new life.

Led out of Egypt by Moses, the Israelites “were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea..” 1Cor. 10:2,3 (sounds kinda like a shadow of being ‘born of the water and of the Spirit’)

Namaan, the Syrian captain and a leper, didn’t think much of dipping in the Jordan, and was as good as dead before he did so. His rotting flesh was changed “...unto the flesh of a little child, and (talk about types and shadows) he was clean”. 2 Kings 5:8-14.

The priests of the tabernacle in the wilderness had to be washed clean before being of service to God. Ex. 30:20

Jonah was, by his own admission, condemned to death. Was cast into the sea. Three days later he came forth a newly motivated preacher, going faithfully into a situation that his carnal man despised.

Acts 22:16 (Ananias to Saul/Paul) “And now why tarriest thou? arise and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.” After a great revival in Samaria (Acts 8:5-25) where people “were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus”, and where Simon the sorcerer offered money for power to give people the Holy Ghost (must’ve been more to receiving the Spirit than seeing people saying “I accept the Lord as my personal saviour”. And the Samaritans believed and were baptized in verse 12, but didn’t receive the Holy Ghost until later, in verse 17. Yes, even though years ago I made fun of it, speaking in tongues is the initial sign of receiving the Holy Ghost; see Acts 2:4; 10:44-46. And yes, I’m sure there are plenty of people faking it.) The Ethiopian eunuch couldn’t wait to be baptized, knowing from Philips preaching, that it was real important. So, when passing by a ‘certain water’, he orderd the chariot to stop, so that he could immediately be baptized. Acts 8:38-39

It was Jesus Christ, our example of course, who said to John the baptist, at the Jordan river, in Matt. 3:15, “Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.”
We could say, “Jesus, how could getting dunked in that river make you any more righteous than you already are?” 1 Cor. 1:26-29 “But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.”

The Lord didn’t ask us to be baptized, he commanded it: Matt. 28:19; Mark 16:16; also John 3:5. John 3:16 is a great verse, but is in a closing summary of what the Lord had explained in detail in the previous verses of chapter 3. I know there are those that say that the water in John 3:5 is natural birth, citing verse 6. But Jesus didn’t say “that which is water is flesh”. In verse 6 He was simply answering Nicodemas’s carnal question. And there is no mention of water in John 1:13, pertaining to fleshly birth. Peter commanded baptism: Acts 2:38; 10:48; Paul commanded baptism: Acts 19:1-5; Even the keeper of the prison was baptized “he and all his, straightway” (there appeared to be a sense of urgency concerning baptism) Acts 16:31-34. Paul admitted to baptizing Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas, to the Corinthians, who were busy bragging about what notable preachers baptized them. 1 Cor. 1:12-17.

When the long lost “book of the law” was found and read, King Josiah was shocked, rent his clothes, and said “...great is the wrath of the Lord that is kindled against us...”. He saw to it that they followed God ordinances with greater zeal than any of his predesessors. 2 Kings chaps 22&23. Someone could have said, “King Josiah, my parents didn’t follow these ordinances, are you saying they were not faithful?” Likewise obedience to Acts 2:38 is not to be treated as an option, or not even necessary. The dead are in God’s hands. The living are to hear and obey his word, which is being faithful.

The Christ became that ultimate sacrifice that didn’t simply cover sin, but was able to bring a “new and living way” (Heb. 10:20) that washed the sin away. Jesus said in Luke 24:47 “...that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. And that came to pass in Jerusalem, on Pentecost, as shown in Acts chp 2, most notably verse 38.

Those that go to the epistles to proclaim the salvation in Jesus Christ, yet deny any power to water baptism in his name, are overlooking the profound fact that the epistles are to read in this context: these letters were written to BELIEVERS. They were already called to be saints (were born again), or were at least witness to it and attending such meetings.

Hopefully this response makes my position somewhat clear. Any other questions or comments will be answered to the best of my ability with the limited time I have.

Thanks and Lord bless.

[editor-surveyor]

Right on!

Roberts, Copeland, and many others were caught-up in themselves, and named their ministries, and colleges after themselves. I thought this was supposed to be about Yeshua!

[evangmlw]

What about the thief on the cross who went to Pardise with Jesus? He was never baptized in water. What about the person who truly accepts Christ minutes, or hours before death and has no access to water or time to be baptized in water? I have been baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Completely immersed in water! I did that as an act of obedience. I baptize many in water, complete immersion in the name of the Father, Jesus, and the Spirit. My salvation rests securely in Jesus Chriat and in Jesus Christ alone. Water baptism is SYMBOLIC! It symbolizes that I died, was buried, and arose with Christ. I was saved before I was baptized. If I had not been saved first by receiving Christ as my Lord & Savior, I would not have been obedient to baptism. Have you been baptized in the name of Father, Son (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit. Do you not believe Matthhew 28:19? When I was baptized in the name of the Father, SON, and Holy Spirit; I was baptized in the name of Jesus. I was saved before I was ever baptized in water! There is nothing anymore magical about water than there is with the juice and bread used for communion. They are strictly symbolic of a spiritual reality. If you don’t believe this, you have been duped, deceived, and misled by the apostolic or oneness movement. You are not following “the faith once delivered to the saints.” Jesus Chriat miraculously changed my life. He did for me what no man could ever do in delivering me from a lifestyle of total destruction. I’ve been preaching this gospel for 30 years now, spent 30 years studying the word of God, 30 years on my knees, and 30 years following Jesus Christ. “I know in whom I have believed.”