Posted on 12/27/2011 8:24:19 PM PST by RnMomof7
Rome, Italy, Dec 8, 2011 / 04:28 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Benedict XVI reflected on the biblical description of a “woman clothed with the sun” in his remarks at Rome's Spanish Steps on the 2011 Feast of the Immaculate Conception.
“What is the meaning of this image? It represents the Church and Our Lady at the same time,” the Pope told the crowd assembled before the nearby statue commemorating the 1854 definition of Mary's Immaculate Conception. “Before all, the 'woman' of the apocalypse is Mary herself.”
The 12th chapter of the Biblical Apocalypse – also known as the Book of Revelation – describes the glorification and persecution of “a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.”
Though not named, this woman is described as the mother of the Messiah. In poetic language akin to the Bible's other prophetic books, Saint John says she faced the threat of “a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns,” and “fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God.”
Pope Benedict, offering white roses in his traditional yearly act of Marian veneration, gave listeners his insight into the connection between the Virgin Mary and the Church – portrayed in the Apocalypse through the single image of the sun-clad woman.
“She appears 'clothed in sunlight,' that is, clothed in God,” observed the Pope. “The Virgin Mary is in fact completely surrounded by the light of God and lives in God … The 'Immaculate One' reflects with all of her person the light of the 'sun' which is God.”
“Besides representing Our Lady, this sign personifies the Church, the Christian community of all times,” he continued.
The Church, he explained, is “pregnant, in the sense that she carries Christ” and “must give birth to him to the world.”
“This is the labor of the pilgrim Church on earth, that in the midst of the consolations of God and the persecutions of the world, she must bring Christ to men.”
Because the Church continues to bring Jesus into the world, Pope Benedict said, it “finds opposition in a ferocious adversary,” symbolized in scripture by the “dragon” that has “tried in vain to devour Jesus,” and now “directs his attacks against the woman – the Church – in the desert of the world.”
“But in every age the Church is supported by the light and the strength of God,” the Pope said. “She is nurtured in the desert with the bread of his word and the Holy Eucharist.”
“And in this way, in every tribulation, through all of the trials that she finds in the course of the ages and in the different parts of the world, the Church suffers persecution, but comes out the victor.”
Pope Benedict said the Church should not fear persecution, which is bound to arise, but will be defeated.
“The only pitfall of which the Church can and must be afraid is the sin of her members,” he warned, highlighting the key difference between the Church and the woman who is its prototype.
“While in fact Mary is immaculate – free from every stain of sin – the Church is holy, but at the same time marked by our sins.”
While sinless herself, Mary remains in solidarity with the Church struggling against sin.
“That is why the people of God, pilgrims in time, turn to their heavenly mother and ask for her help,” explained Pope Benedict.
He stressed the world's need for the hope brought by the “woman clothed with the sun” – “especially in this difficult moment for Italy, for Europe and for different parts of the world.”
“May Mary help us to see that there is a light beyond the veil of fog that appears to envelop reality,” he declared.
“For this also we, especially on this day, never cease to ask with filial trust for her help: 'O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to you.'”
It’s that carnal “thinking” that gets so many in trouble.
Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Some rely on the wisdom of man and what man teaches.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
Is your future sealed or not?
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
The faith of Christ enables us to have faith in Christ.
Thank you!
You may think it’s “secondary an contingent” but scripture would say otherwise.
I disagree. I just read Rev 12 again (NKJV) and the reference is always the woman, which is usually representative of Israel. Also, if this chapter in Revelation is referencing May why didn't John say so? John knew her better than anyone, he was given the responsibility of looking after her.
The misinterpretation that the woman is Mary is probably because of her elevation in status outside of Scripture. I think while we should always respect Mary and her role in Jesus Christ coming to be with us we should temper that respect with the recognition that she had no role in his ministry on Earth. Mary was only in close proximity to Jesus on a few occasions after Jesus began his ministry. Mary was at the wedding in Cana. Mary came with Jesus' brothers to take him home and at the Cross. Mary was not among those who ministered to Jesus during His ministry and she is not mentioned at any of His appearances before or after the ascension.
The status of Mary is way overblown. His human spirit was given to Him by God the Father and His divine Spirit has always existed with the Father. God the Father raised Him from the dead and gave him His glorified body. What Mary gave Jesus died in the grave. So the interpretation that Mary has a role in the Tribulation is inconsistent with Scripture.
RC I pinged a few others that might be able to add to the discussion.
Wait a sec. You misunderstood what I was saying.
I was saying that everything about God is primary and absolute.
Everything about a creature is secondary and contingent.
Are we on the same page here?
A woman with child has clear reference back to the nativity, wmfights. You won’t often find me in agreement with our Catholic contingent and at odds with our Protestant and fundamentalist contingents, and while I certainly don’t agree with the further meaning derived by Catholics from this prophecy, it’s plain that a woman with child in the Bible symbolizes Mary and the birth of Jesus Christ.
I don’t disagree at all with what you’ve said, but the additional symbolism is not something I’m able to deny. I will, however, continue to maintain that what you’ve put forth is not the only meaning. Mary gave birth to Jesus Christ. Israel gave birth to the Messiah. This will lay bare that they are one and the same, to all, particularly those of the Covenant who denied Him.
It’s also one of those signs and wonders in the sky. Yes, signs have a definitely mixed bag in the Bible. Signs of His coming have not been denigrated or condemned, though.
I stand open to being corrected, but this does fit quite well for any number of reasons. Traditional interpretations appear to have become polarized due to various splits and schisms, and continuing elaboration has obscured a basic truth in at least one instance. That is how it appears to me.
Educate me if I need it; I’m pretty sure that process is far from over.
That would be true in the CC especially. Jesus own words would show that to be true.
Luke 11:27-28 27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. 28 But he said, Nay rather, (Greek Menounge: nay surely, nay rather) blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.
Yep, but the problem is that Catholics put Mary in a primary position. They deny it but it has been shown over and over that in fact they do.
In related news, I realized that — IN ME — not telling God what I want was an act of spiritual pride. I confessed it in my last confessions before Xmas.
One aspect of it was by not asking I cut myself of from all that I could learn if God says no.
So now I ask and learn.
I don’t think you’ll encounter the term “sin nature” very often in Catholic thought.
I don’t see that the curse on childbirth is necessarily confined to women who sin. Further, it is not settled teaching that Mary’s delivery was without pain. I am reading the hymns of Ephrem of Syria (4th century Mesopotamia — awesomely great hymns), and he says it was a birth with pangs.
Further, in giving birth to Jesus, Mary, we hold, gives birth to the Church, and in being the mother of Christ she shares, off course in a lesser way, his sufferings as he sheds the blood which grows the Church. As the mother of Christ, she shares in his suffering. as the mother of the Church (for the Church is the body of him whom she bore), she shares in the sufferings of the Church and,indeed, of the whole creation which groaneth together in travail until now.
They insist on their quasi-literal understanding of the birth pangs, but raise no fuss about standing on the moon or the crown of twelve stars.
But more foolishly still, they seem to think that centuries of study and of reference to this very passage — even by those who hold the Immaculate Conception, would somehow overlook the birth pangs argument and they bring forth this battered tin can as though it were some precious hereto unseen and devastating argument. Then they all grin at each other as if they’d done something of unprecedented craftiness.
Yeah. Well. Whatever.
Merry Christmas.
Aha! (Now I feel like a diagnostician.) Now I think I see exactly where the problem is. Everything we Catholics are saying about a creature (Mary) you are taking as if it were absolute and directed toward a goddess.
Think this through with me. I think we can unravel this.
The Song of Solomon (Link) is full of praises of a woman and a man for each other. There's over a hundred verses about the lovers being like roses, lilies, their love being strong than death, the beloved being pure and all-beautiful and without spot, the beloved leaping mountains, their preoccupation with and vehement desire for each other, etc. etc.
As religious expression, how would you evaluate this:
Your view?
Aha! (Now I feel like a diagnostician.) Now I think I see exactly where the problem is. Everything we Catholics are saying about a creature (Mary) you are taking as if it were absolute and directed toward a goddess.
Think this through with me. I think we can unravel this.
The Song of Solomon (Link) is full of praises of a woman and a man for each other. There's over a hundred verses about the lovers being like roses, lilies, their love being strong than death, the beloved being pure and all-beautiful and without spot, the beloved leaping mountains, their preoccupation with and vehement desire for each other, etc. etc.
As religious expression, how would you evaluate this:
Your view?
Aha! (Now I feel like a diagnostician.) Now I think I see exactly where the problem is. Everything we Catholics are saying about a creature (Mary) you are taking as if it were absolute and directed toward a goddess.
Think this through with me. I think we can unravel this.
The Song of Solomon (Link) is full of praises of a woman and a man for each other. There's over a hundred verses about the lovers being like roses, lilies, their love being strong than death, the beloved being pure and all-beautiful and without spot, the beloved leaping mountains, their preoccupation with and vehement desire for each other, etc. etc.
As religious expression, how would you evaluate this:
Your view?
Interesting what the devil influences individuals to believe.
The churches of one stop at the liquor store and the LaZBoy chair.
You won't ever get a straight answer.
As I said; we will never get a straight answer.
It must be rather interesting in the twilight between Judaism and Christianity, belonging to neither and accepted by neither.
How are the benefits?
Lol!!
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