"The Shroud is not a fake" (Scientists say there is no way to falsify or duplicate it)

Vatican Insider ^ | December 12, 2011 | MARCO TOSATTI

[cornfedcowboy]

If I kneel down in front of my bed to pray, does this mean I am worshiping my bed?

---

Depends who is in the bed and what you are praying for.

[Al Hitan]

Maybe you should understand who it is that is doing the good.

Whatever happened to the plain, old meaning of Scripture?

Hebrews 13:16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Are you seriously contending that you have no involvement with doing good and sharing? If so you should re-evaluate what it is you are doing.

[CynicalBear]

>>Are you seriously contending that you have no involvement with doing good and sharing?<<

Boast of your well doing if you must. I’ll continue to give credit to Christ who lives in me. And quite thankfully also I might add.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

It’s not “my faith” but the faith of Christ in me.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2 Corinthians 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[lonevoice]

The most interesting aspects are: not formed by contact between the body and the shroud, no sign of putrefaction, no image formed beneath blood, therefore, blood deposited first, no sign in blood stains of movement after wrapping, a 200nm thick image layer, and a total required laser energy of 34,000 billion watts to imprint an image of that size at a single time using a laser.

Nicely summarized!

[lonevoice]

Thanks, Swordmaker. I can’t remember the last time we had a Shroud of Turin ping.

[GreyFriar]

Thank you very much.

[brityank]

Thank you.

Bump.

[Wuli]

That seems like quite an untenable position to take. How then, can belief or non-belief in the resurrection of Jesus,...

If you choose to believe the latter, the shroud is just one more of those same type of things. Is it not?

Belief in the Resurrection does not REQUIRE someone to believe that the shroud of Turin is part of that. One can leave the answer to that to G-d and still believe in the Resurrection.

[ZX12R]

Belief in the Resurrection does not REQUIRE someone to believe that the shroud of Turin is part of that. One can leave the answer to that to G-d and still believe in the Resurrection.

The image on the shroud is supposedly evidence of the resurrection. If you choose to believe in the resurrection, why not simply the shroud too? I still don't see the distinction, or why you would be skeptical of whose image it might be.

[TASMANIANRED]

Ping for later

[dubyagee]

“...work out your salvation with fear and trembling...”

YOURS...not others. It is truly a great weight lifted when one recieves a revelation of this scripture. You are not ultimately responsible for what others believe, or don’t believe — especially on a political forum. His burden is light. Take care.

[dubyagee]

“...work out your salvation with fear and trembling...”

YOURS...not others. It is truly a great weight lifted when one recieves a revelation of this scripture. You are not ultimately responsible for what others believe, or don’t believe — especially on a political forum. His burden is light. Take care.

[Grizzled Bear]

If I kneel down in front of my bed to pray, does this mean I am worshiping my bed?

Depends... Are you asking your bed to intercede on your behalf? Do you consider your bed to be the "co-redeemer?"

As far as abuse of relics is concerned... Consider what happened when the Israelites began venerating the golden snake on the staff (those who were snake bitten were to look at it) and the ephod. If something distracts from giving God due worship and focus, it is a stumbling block and should be avoided.

[SumProVita]

“Depends... Are you asking your bed to intercede on your behalf? Do you consider your bed to be the “co-redeemer?””

Gee, did I really need a sarcasm alert at the end of my question? ;-)

For the record, the answer to your questions (which are also without sarcasm alert) is NO.

The answer would still be NO if I had a candle lit or was kneeling before any stained glass window or statue or whatever. And all those people I know would also answer NO.

“If something distracts from giving God due worship and focus, it is a stumbling block and should be avoided.”

Common sense for any sincere Christian.

[Al Hitan]

Boast of your well doing if you must.

Nobody's talking about boasting except you. It's not a matter of boasting. It is a matter of doing. And there are things we do that pleases God.

Hebrews 13:16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

do not forget to do good We must have some involvment if the instruction is to not forget. Christ doesn't forget but we certainly do. You are not a robot. We have free will. That's why we are told to do good.

for with such sacrifices God is well pleased If you are not involved in doing good and sharing, which pleases God, then that is a pretty sad state of affairs and you had better repent and change what it is you are doing. When we worship God, it isn't a matter of God worshiping himself. We are involved. I know you've said you haven't done anything that pleases God, but I sincerely hope that is not true.

[grey_whiskers]

Satan is the chief of deception... he loves it when men worship golden calves

My wife worships my golden calves...and thighs.

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

Thanks for the *PING*, dude.

(Some of the usual crowd have arrived, too...)

Cheers!

[Swordmaker]

The front image is 6’8” long, the back 6’10”

False. Expert forensic pathologists, not amateur skeptics who have only measured flat photographs and came up with those extreme measurements by "guessing depths", have determined that the image is correctly sized for a man approximately 5' 9"- 10" tall, that is bent slightly forward in rigor mortis. This has been confirmed in several peer reviewed journals and papers. Your figure was publish in NO peer reviewed journal and was reported only in one skeptical magazine... and has no basis in actual research. The SCIENTISTS put their names and reputations on the line in published articles in peer reviewed MEDICAL JOURNALS... the skeptics published in popular press magazines, or their own skeptical journals and congratulated themselves on showing up those stupid scientists!

The head is too small for the body and appears to have been “pasted” on (large separation line at neck)

Also false. Same as above... The head is only too small if you use the absurd 6' 10:" calculated height. The pasted on claim is solely based on the appearance of a pleated fold in the cloth running across the neck that is an artifact of early black and white photographs and wishful think on the part of skeptics. Without the distortion of the false height, the head is perfectly proportional. with the given body size.

If the shroud was draped around the body head-to-toe, why isn’t the top of the head shown. The intervening space is too short and the images appear hinged.

Also false... there is approximately five inches of space separating the dorsal and frontal images at the head. In addition, the jaw was kept closed by a cloth wrapped over the head and under the jaw, tied at the crown, thus obscuring any image that may have formed... this was the cloth wrapped "around the face." No one else, other than the single skeptical magazine report has ever claimed this "hinged effect" as the space is obvious to other observers. It is a red herring. What the skeptics claimed is the top of the dorsal head is merely a water stain.

Had they bothered to look at a photograph of the entire shroud stretched out, instead of just the frontal image, and drawn a few lines, say, some through where the ear line would have gone appropriately above the shoulders on both the frontal and dorsal images, it becomes obvious where the crowns of both images' heads would be... and the spacing becomes obvious. But, the skeptics NEVER let facts like those get in the way of a good debunking theory.

The real miracle is that it appears to be the world’s first photograph. Capturing images was widely known even in Roman times, but the image soon faded. Someone found out how to “set” the image.

This one is a complete lie. No historian has EVER come up with a report of captured images from Roman antiquity! Camera obscuras were known but capturing images was NOT a technique that anyone ever accomplished. . . that was reported on. The image on the Shroud is NOT any known photographic technique... it not at all an artifact of light.In fact it is a not a photograph at all, which is a shadow record, because it shows absolutely NO light directionality in the data.

The Shroud is rather a three dimensional terrain map of the body over which the shroud was draped. In other words it is an inverse, two dimensional database of the distance the surface of the cloth was from the body. The image is most intense when touching the body, but fades to nothingness at approximately 5 centimeters distance from the body... AND the data is collimated straight up and down, with absolutely no observable side to side variation!

Ergo your claim about "someone found out how to set" a nonexistent ancient photograph is so much twaddle. . .made up by a desperate skeptic, ignorant of the science because he refused to accept that "shroudies," all of whom were world renowned experts in their fields, could possibly do good science, even though he himself was merely a failed magician who's college degree was in English Literature!

So much for the "debunking" crowd... who wouldn't know good science if it bit them on the arse!

IT is, in fact a very miraculous object... whether in religion or art or science. If it is NOT the burial shroud of the son of God, then it is even more miraculous in that it was created with techniques that modern science cannot discern, divine, or even duplicate seven hundred or more years after the latest possible known creation date of this remarkable artifact, if it is indeed an object of artifice. . . and there is credible evidence that it was in existence at least eleven hundred years ago!

[Swordmaker]

Bless you for a reasoned post on this thread; and the use of facts instead of ridiculous assertions.

Only one slight problem... they aren't facts.

They are made up hogwash from a skeptical magazine, and not from peer-reviewed science. They aren't true.

Those "facts" are demonstrably false. . . and fly in the face of work done by true scientists who are experts in their fields.

They were published by a failed stage magician who's expertise is that he has a degree in English Literature, quoting journalists and others with similar expertise. He has NO HANDS ON TIME with the shroud at all. His measurements are twaddle. Nothing more.

[csense]

bkmk