Posted on 10/10/2011 12:03:16 PM PDT by NYer
... the guidelines established for the Anglican ordinariate by Pope Benedict XVI's in his 2009 apostolic constitution, Anglicanorum coetibus his 2007 Apostolic Letter "Summorum Pontificum" is St. Luke’s, in Maryland:
“This truly is a historic moment,” said Cardinal Donald W. Wuerl, the archbishop of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Washington, who led Sunday’s conversion Mass, which he called “a joyful moment of completion.”
Fifty-eight of St. Luke’s roughly 100 parishioners were confirmed at the applause-filled Mass, during which they were anointed by Wuerl — one by one, old and young, white and black.
Osita Okafor, a 56-year-old Nigerian immigrant, found himself first in line before Wuerl for the rite of reception. His reaction? “Oh, my God, I must be blessed.” ...
The parish’s conversion made international headlines when it was announced in June. After all, St. Luke’s had been an Episcopal church for more than a century. But it wasn’t too much of a leap for the parish, which for years had been part of Anglo-Catholicism, a movement that embraces various Catholic practices and theology but still treasures aspects of Anglican ritual, such as kneeling to receive Communion.
At the basilica, before the archbishop, parishioners stood for Communion. But at St. Luke’s, they’ll be allowed to kneel under the guidelines laid out by the Vatican in 2009 when it announced plans to create a special body that would let American Anglicans keep some of their traditions, including their married priests.
Read the entire Washington Post article, "Episcopal parish in Bladensburg converts to Roman Catholic Church" (Oct. 9, 2011). for more about the ordinariate, see the book, Anglicans and the Roman Catholic Church: Reflections on Recent Developments (Ignatius Press, 2011), edited by Stephen Cavanaugh. Here is the Introduction:
That’s the big error in the alvinist POV: God’s not satisfied with damning a person before the beginning of creation, but after the person is dead, he’d have to resurrect him and tell him, “I’m going to punish you in hell forever because you perfectly—though you had no choice—followed the plan I set out for you since before the beginning of the world, all for my good pleasure and greater glory.” That’s just perverse piling on. And again we have to ask, “Glory before whom?” If all is created by God and determined by God, then there is no other “who” before whom glory, to whatever degree, is to be manifest and no context within which glory would even have any meaning. The whole thing is nothing more than an audience of one, the sound of that one’s hands clapping. Even Zen makes more sense than that.
They believe they are robots made by a robot-maker that creates some robots evil and creates others "good" and programs the evil to do evil and the good to do good.
in fact, they don't even "believe in" or "love" the robotmaker -- they are programmed to do some things -- evil and good.
Then, at the end of times, those with the Brahmin elite elect stamp go to heaven and the others, programmed to do evil by the robotmaker go to eternal torment
In fact, their entire philosophy of pre-programming means that they do not believe in the salvation of Christ — there was no need for this in their pre-programmed philosophy — it was just the sadistic tendencies of the robot-maker they worship. They are not Christian
I hope I can down the road, with one problem knee.
My point is that the Catholic Church adds a requirement (that a bishop cannot be married) that is not found in scripture. I am not saying scripture requires that a bishop be married, but Paul clearly anticipated that many would be.
As I said, the Catholic Church can make whatever rules it likes for its clergy - as long as it doesn’t try to claim scriptural authority for this one, I don’t care.
No. Read on. John 6:43, 44 "Jesus answered and said to them, 'Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws Him; and I will raise him up on the last day." 6:64, 65 " 'But there are some of you who do not believe' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father.'" This does have to do with those being elect before the foundation of the world.
Your error is that you view God as a very big man. Smart, adaptive, creative...but a large man. He is not that, but the Catholic Church has revised man's role into godlike creatures. That is why they pray to men and women. They view them as equals to God. The Scriptures disagree. That, however, does not stop Rome. Rome has authority over all...or so it thinks. Lucifer, too, was self-deceived.
Think carefully about your argument. If men were really free, then God could not possibly know what it is that they were going to do tomorrow. Why not? Because they may change their minds and act apart from Him. If He knows what will happen tomorrow, then those events are fixed and unchangeable. The Scriptures state that they are fixed because He is managing their occurrence. Even the roll of the dice.
That this bothers Rome is inconsequential. They are bothered by almost anything that paints them as the buffoons they are. They strain to supplant God at every turn. Nevertheless, there is a God of Heaven and Earth, the Holy One of Israel, who directs all, bringing calamity when necessary and rescue to those whom He chooses.
This is an interesting couple of questions. Loaded, to be sure, but interesting nonetheless.
The first: Absolutely no. What the Scriptures describe is that God manages, or perhaps manipulates, the will of men to turn toward Him. They begin as "enemies" of God, which is a tragic but truthful situation. He, out of the counsel of His will, determines to extend mercy and adopt some of them. To those whom He adopts, His Spirit begins to soften their hearts and they begin to want Him...deeply.
Prior to this regeneration, faith is not possible and no man is actually seeking God irrespective of what he believes. This is Paul's argument from Scripture (Rom. 3:10ff: There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands; there is none who seeks for God.) Once regenerated, the man's will is maneuvered to want Christ, to want rescue, to want forgiveness. The Holy Spirit invades his life and amplifies these experiences and causes the man to grow in this grace and understanding.
The second: Does this "force" men to be saved? Well, clearly if a man is at emnity with God to begin with, the action upon his soul is not in accord with his will when this begins. It is common to hear that prevenient grace (enough for anyone to respond) has been shed upon men, but this is not the biblical view. Only specific grace is sufficient to respond just as Acts 13:48 describes.
This may seem like a "forcing" and perhaps it is. I am grateful then that God forces it, if that is what is happening. Us blockheaded humans don't have the equipment on board to get out of the street, so we are grateful when our Heavenly Father reaches out and drags us to Himself. And, our job is to collect all of the data describing this process into a cohesive message. Rome's message does not comport with all the data.
The last few posts full of ranting about this view being Brahman (Hindu?) or some kind of automaton experience are curious.
No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws HimThat's the one-verse refutation of semi-Pelagianism, which I already explained is not Catholic belief.
Your error is that you view God as a very big man.
Actually, I think that's your error, when you write stuff like this:
If men were really free, then God could not possibly know what it is that they were going to do tomorrow.
God is outside time. He is supreme over time. He is Lord over time; he created time out of nothing. He sees tomorrow just as perfectly as he sees today and yesterday. How he intervenes in it is completely up to him.
If He knows what will happen tomorrow, then those events are fixed and unchangeable.
"Unchangeable" is a nonsensical term in this context. Change implies progression in time. If God is outside of time, then change is meaningless for him. He sees present, and past, and future, and is free to allow us to be as free as he likes. If I'm going to change my mind, he sees that. He can see it without causing it, or he can cause it, as he so pleases.
That you do not grant him that freedom, ironically, means that you are cutting God down to size, despite your slander:
They view them as equals to God.
Nothing could be remotely further from the truth.
Absolutely true. And He has chosen to manage every single detail.
Is. 45:7 - The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these.
Prov. 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Prov. 21:1 - The king's heart is like a channel of water in the hand of the Lord. He turns it wherever He wishes.
Exodus 7:2,3 - "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Free will? Randomness? Chance? ...LOL
You are putty in His hands, just as we all are. The God of the Bible is so much in control of His universe, as testified to in His Scriptures, that every detail is managed by Him. However, Rome is so darkened in the course of their own minds that they war with Him...but even this is managed by God.
I am directed to encourage you to escape their clutches...if you can.
You wrote:
“To those whom He adopts, His Spirit begins to soften their hearts and they begin to want Him...deeply.”
How is that not man cooperating with God?
Prevenient grace does not save men. Thus, to say that because it exists, it “may seem like a “forcing” and perhaps it is” is just crazy and has nothing to do with how God works. God calls man. He forces no man to be saved. If we resist God we succeed in our own destruction. We must cooperate with Him to be saved.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/COOPERAT.htm
To what end are you directed to encourage anyone to leave the “clutches” (LOL - as if we’re not free to leave at any time) of the Catholic Church? If it is as you say, then your words are utterly incapable of affecting a change in anyone that would lead to what you regard as a genuine Christian conversion.
Too, what makes you so certain that you belong to the exclusive club of God’s chosen? What guarantee do you have that you’ll persevere to the end?
What do you say when you evangelize? “I’m compelled to share the Gospel, but it may not matter. You could be one of those who’ve been preselected by God for damnation.”
If that’s the true Gospel, I want no part of it.
We are encouraged to be ready in season and out of season to reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction. IITim 4:2. I am reproving you, rebuking you right now. That God may or may not grant you eyes to see and ears to hear is up to Him. And, you are correct, my words are not the thing effecting change...only God does that. The words may be used or may not be used.
"Too, what makes you so certain that you belong to the exclusive club of God’s chosen? What guarantee do you have that you’ll persevere to the end?
The term "certain" is not really something we worry about. We find the trace elements of the faith described in the Scriptures, namely the abandonment of reliance upon anything but the unmerited favor of Christ, to be sufficient. I trust you are not relying upon a group of ceremonies and enrollment on an Italian membership list to be "certainty" for your eternal destination...are you?
"What do you say when you evangelize? “I’m compelled to share the Gospel, but it may not matter. You could be one of those who’ve been preselected by God for damnation.”
What I say is what I am saying right now. Jesus the Nazarene, the Messiah of Israel, is the Living God who came to fulfill the Law and rescue those whom the Father has given Him. If you sense that your brokenness is so complete as to render you hopeless and helpless, unless He reaches to you, then you may be among those for whom this adoption is reserved. Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection accomplishes two important objectives for His chosen:
1. It forgives once and for all time your sins AND the fact that you are built with a sinful nature that will continue to sin. There are no ceremonies, no rituals, no incantations, no confessions, no anything that can induce Him to do this. No wafers, no wine can recreate this sacrificial event. Should Jesus determine to do this for you, you will no longer be guilty in the eyes of God.
2. It clothes you in His righteousness. It would not be enough for you to just be forgiven, as good as that would be. In order to stand before the Father, we must be holy. Since we do not possess that, Christ's holiness is what a believer must be wrapped in to make them presentable. The time will come in heaven when He remakes you into a holy creature, but we will need Christ's holiness until that happens.
If you want this, and you are among the elect, then Christ has regenerated you imbuing you with faith. You are being saved. You will receive His Holy Spirit as downpayment of the continual and future care He intends to provide you. And ultimately you will see life like you have never known when you leave this earthly tent.
There are no mediators between you and Christ, no alter christus, no "priests" in the sense the Roman church wishes to claim. Every believer is a "priest" in that they can deliver words to other people. But, only God determines whether those will effect a change and only God effects the change.
There is no penance to perform, there is no pergatory to dread, there is no anything, but Christ. Grace really is "unmerited favor", a gift given to those God decides to rescue. If you find this happening in you, then fellowship with other believers regularly to understand how this message is throughout the Scriptures. You will grow in the grace and knowledge of Christ and look forward to the hope laid up for us. Enjoy your Savior.
That is what I say when I speak to those asking...and you asked. Thus, I am evangelizing you right now. Does this ring true? Perhaps you are among the elect and will abandon the paganized, ritualistic, sacerdotalism and ceremony of Rome and return to the simple fellowship with other believers.
"If that’s the true Gospel, I want no part of it.
Perhaps not.
We are encouraged to be ready in season and out of season to reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction. IITim 4:2. I am reproving you, rebuking you right now. That God may or may not grant you eyes to see and ears to hear is up to Him. The words may be used or may not be used.
Which is to say, that you're commanded to be ready to do something that has absolutely no impact? That God commands you to perform empty actions as a mere sign of obedience?
I trust you are not relying upon a group of ceremonies and enrollment on an Italian membership list to be "certainty" for your eternal destination...are you?
I'm rolling my eyes... no Catholic trusts in rituals, as though mere external actions can effect a conversion of the heart and a turning toward Him in repentance to have our sins forgiven. Many, many previous answers by fellow Catholics have made it clear that we rely solely upon the unmerited favor of Our Lord who calls us out of His goodness to respond to Him in obedience for the salvation of our souls. What sort of God "wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2:4) but then decides - positively wills vs. permits - that there will be some who have absolutely no chance of being saved? What a strange, capricious God - it almost reminds me of the false god of Islam, who is a slave-master rather than the loving Father described to us in sacred scripture.
And what sort of God would make a covenant that was MORE restrictive than the one it replaces? What sort of God would determine that all male children had the right to be members of the household of God through the ritual observance of circumcision, and then, while seemingly broadening the covenant to worldwide scope, suddenly reveal that there were some who would never, by His will, be permitted to taste the fruits of that covenant?
That is what I say when I speak to those asking...and you asked. Thus, I am evangelizing you right now. Does this ring true? Perhaps you are among the elect and will abandon the paganized, ritualistic, sacerdotalism and ceremony of Rome and return to the simple fellowship with other believers.
But again, your words will have no impact either way, right? If I'm set aside to one day repent and see the gospel as you describe it (a twisted, cruel, capricious gospel at that), then you're wasting your words evangelizing at all. You're merely robotically going about your pre-programmed duty, bouncing words off of myself and my fellow Catholics who may or may not be pre-programmed to join you in your strange version of heaven in which some are predestined to hell before ever having the chance to understand, repent, accept, love and obey Our Lord.
To folks like you (and I've encountered TONS of folks like you since going public with my conversion), it doesn't matter that I've been able to rid myself of sins that I'd been committing my entire life, or that I'm more devoted to the reading of sacred scripture and daily prayer, or that I'm more committed to serving my fellow Christians through teaching and pro-life ministry, than I ever was before I left evangelical Protestantism. I don't believe in the monstrous, anti-Biblical concept of double-predestination, or the foundational error of sola scriptura on which you base your twisted view of God and salvation history, and thus I'm probably condemned. And there's nothing I can do about it, and nothing you can do about it, and nothing anyone else can do about it.
And we're the ones who have something to escape? Please.
The difference is between regeneration preceding faith and faith commencing regeneration. If you carefully read what I wrote you will notice that men do cooperate with God...once they are saved. Your system requires men to cooperate with God in order to be saved. "We must cooperate with Him to be saved."
Notice the order. This is a monumental difference just as Luke wrote about in Acts 13:48. The Roman system is unbiblical. Also, notice, that if regeneration precedes faith the first move is from God, not men. Recall Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus. No cooperation, no confession, no ceremony was necessary for him to be laid hold of. He was simply knocked to the ground, blinded and told what was going to happen to him. Yes, Ananias, was sent to tell him more, lay hands on him, and baptize him, but Paul was rescued long before these things happened to him. He even notes that he learned he had been set aside from birth for such. Gal. 1:15 Choice? Not according to Paul.
And neither your organization nor any organization can induce salvation in another human being. Paul went around proclaiming forgiveness in the Name of Christ to find out who it was that God's Spirit was rescuing. He did not induce salvation in anyone. That the idea of men being able to take it or leave it is a misunderstanding that is not just resident in Rome. But, Rome is a great perpetrator of the error...an error they need, but an error nonetheless.
Well, it does not feel robotic to address the errors of your thinking. I simply echo Paul's words that, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If you wish to view this as strange, that is what you have been given.
"To folks like you (and I've encountered TONS of folks like you since going public with my conversion), it doesn't matter that I've been able to rid myself of sins that I'd been committing my entire life, or that I'm more devoted to the reading of sacred scripture and daily prayer, or that I'm more committed to serving my fellow Christians through teaching and pro-life ministry, than I ever was before I left evangelical Protestantism. I don't believe in the monstrous, anti-Biblical concept of double-predestination, or the foundational error of sola scriptura on which you base your twisted view of God and salvation history, and thus I'm probably condemned. And there's nothing I can do about it, and nothing you can do about it, and nothing anyone else can do about it."
Well, God can do something about...if He chooses. The question is not what you may like, but what the truth of the Scriptures actually sets out. If Paul's remarks about being held in the hands of God, and not yourself or an organization, make you uncomfortable it cannot be helped...at least by me.
LOL! I love St. Paul's words, and they should make all of us uncomfortable, because they reveal us for what we really are. But I don't find your interpretation of St. Paul's words uncomfortable, because false interpretations of scripture shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable.
Actually, if you are among the elect, then you are a "saint" along with Paul. Only the big organizations seem to add this appelation to certain folks. Real believers add it to every believer. But, could you be more specific about my misinterpretation?
First, we're aware that the elect are all "saints." There are those, also, who've led lives of exemplary sanctity who have been granted the title of Saint. Second, many others who are far more intelligent, articulate and well-read Catholics than myself have already given you the proper interpretations, and you've not proven yourself willing to do anything but preach at us (though you fully admit that your words are essentially meaningless, as they will have no impact on whether we decide to repent and accept the Gospel), so what good would it do?
You have made a few remarks about the "strangeness" of my perspective(s), but this beyond the pale. If you think that this ritual (circumcision) is what made a person a Jew, rather than the descendancy from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then you, my FRiend, need to re-read the text. The sign did not make them Jews or part of His household. Their birth was the thing which made them Jews. And, notice they had no say in that birth, either.
Later, when Paul notes that the true Israel (the universal family of God, the assembly belonging to the First Born) is not the physical family of Israel, but those who have been rescued. And it does not depend on the man who runs (acts) or the man who wills (chooses), but upon God who has mercy. And He will have mercy on some and harden some. Romans 9. Hmmm.
A number of folks have discounted the words of Paul, apparently in an attempt to display some kind of superior authority for their "official" interpretation. Interestingly, none have actually addressed Paul's argument, an argument which defeats their dismissals. But, that is because, according to the text, their eyes are darkened and their ears are covered by God. If it does no good, that does not mean we are not to keep speaking. Perhaps you missed that part of my posts.
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