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Did Mary Have Other Children?
Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry ^ | Unknown | Matt Slick

Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD

One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).

As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?

The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)

An initial reading of these biblical texts seems to clear up the issue: Jesus had brothers and sisters. But such obvious scriptures are not without their response from Catholic Theologians. The primary argument against these biblical texts is as follows:

In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.

There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.

Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.

In both of these verses, if the brothers of Jesus are not brothers, but His cousins, then who is His mother and who is the carpenters father? In other words, mother here refers to Mary. The carpenter in Matt. 13:55, refers to Joseph. These are literal. Yet, the Catholic theologian will then stop there and say, "Though carpenters son refers to Joseph, and mother refers to Mary, brothers does not mean brothers, but "cousins." This does not seem to be a legitimate assertion. You cannot simply switch contextual meanings in the middle of a sentence unless it is obviously required. The context is clear. This verse is speaking of Joseph, Mary, and Jesus brothers. The whole context is of familial relationship: father, mother, and brothers.

Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm

There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."

He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."

Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.

To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."

This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.

Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?

Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.

The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.

It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: brothers; cousins; mary; nameonebrother; relatives; stepchildren
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To: Quix

You’ve already proved my point.


621 posted on 06/17/2011 10:29:39 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

In your fantasies.


622 posted on 06/17/2011 10:33:23 PM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Quix

And with that tired teenage comeback, I’ll leave the thread to you - for more of the same - over the weekend.


623 posted on 06/17/2011 10:37:28 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: boatbums; D-fendr
dares speak about something - whoop there it is!

hmmm... and how come I never saw or see any of your posts criticizing your cohorts for doing this? For years your posts telling these cohorts to stop it were silent. Then suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and all the cribbing starts

It's like your posts talking about "personal attacks" -- its' fine if the cohorts do this, or your post does it, but on the other side... ooooh.. 'crib, cry, cry, waaa, waaa'

624 posted on 06/17/2011 10:48:48 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: D-fendr
What I don't get is the need for some folks to deny Jesus Christ's own words

Mk 16:16, Lk 13:3, Jn 6:54, Matt 23:13 are Jesus's own words telling us that

  1. He who believes
  2. and is baptized will be saved.
  3. [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish
  4. [H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day
  5. he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

These are the Lord's very own words His very own statements, exhortations, commands.

this is not the philosophy or wisdom of men, this what God Himself has commanded.

625 posted on 06/17/2011 11:56:00 PM PDT by Cronos ( W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie I Szczebrzeszyn z tego słynie.)
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To: ravenwolf
Did Mary have other children?...I do not know of any place that the Bible says yes,...

As the author points out, there are many places where scripture states this including the following:

Contextually it doesn't make sense to about Jesus' brothers as "cousins" while talking about the "carpenter's son".
626 posted on 06/18/2011 4:10:36 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: boatbums; All
A few verses to remind us...

Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.

Act 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

The apostles and elders are not the church...

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

If someone can't see the church in these few verses alone, and see that the church is the assembly of believers, certainly God has blinded their minds to see it, or, the preserved words of God are completely meaningless and not worthy of belief to those who follow religions instead of God...

627 posted on 06/18/2011 5:11:35 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
Ah, Mark -- you see, only us Christians (whether Catholic or lutheran or anglican or PResbyterian or Pentecostal etc.) say out loudly that Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior. the non-Christian groups don't

Agreed. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Or, in the posts here...

628 posted on 06/18/2011 5:15:32 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so..)
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To: HarleyD

Contextually it doesn’t make sense to about Jesus’ brothers as “cousins” while talking about the “carpenter’s son”.


If this was the only verse that was in question i would agree with you, but its like Johngrace pointed out, the names given to identify James and Joseph Does not mention Joseph the husband of Mary as their father.


629 posted on 06/18/2011 5:36:03 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: Cronos
And the winnah!!

And the winner is,,,the Catholic religion...

Them Catholics worship (venerate, same thing) a supposed image of Jesus on the rotted skin of an avacado...They see Mary in a water stain from a leaking roof on the ceiling...They see Jesus face in a dill pickle...They see Mary in the squished remains of a bug on the windshield...

The recent popes acknowledge that the ghost of Mary shows up all over the world who gives prophetic knowledge to Catholics such as; there's going to be another war...And, tomorrow you will be older than you are today...

Catholics pray to people for miracles whom no one has a clue whether the person is in heaven or hell...And if someone's healed, or they find their lost car keys, that person they prayed to becomes a Saint...

They say Mary dispenses Salvation, mercy and grace so they pray to Mary instead of God in spite of what God says in the scriptures

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Instead, they go to Mary and none of them has in their spirit the assurance of eternal security...Duh....

But regardless of this and almost countless other anti biblical practices, let's put some guy named Jesse Duplantis in the spotlight and make him the poster child for all the born again, bible believing non Catholics...What JD puts out is cotton candy compared to what your religion dishes out...

630 posted on 06/18/2011 5:53:18 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
The problem occurs when one reads something in English translated from another language and doesn't realise that hte other language pictures it differently.

I don't have that problem...And I wouldn't waste my time with it...

There are countless numbers of trained experts out there who have devoted their lives to learning other languages including translating Hebrew and Greek into English...

I would never be as good as those guys and with all due respect, I doubt that you will either...

I'll even go further and say that I doubt anyone has improved on what the King James translators determined to be the correct translation of those languages...

I have yet to see anyone's translation that added knowledge to, or improved upon the translation of the KJV...Seen a lot of deception tho...

631 posted on 06/18/2011 6:00:56 AM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos; getoffmylawn
goml — you can ignore the “Biblical unitarian’s” posts — the unitarians use “Bahble Bleavin” to justify their points for Universal Unitarianism — and you know what that means (basically nothing!)

Photobucket

632 posted on 06/18/2011 7:35:38 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: getoffmylawn
That was a truthful summary of the posts I’ve been reading here for years.

I have been a member of FR for 10 years and I can't recall seeing more than just a few such crazy posts. Furthermore, the far out "nuts", from all sides of the spectrum, disappear pretty quickly.

Your "truthful" summary, posted below, is very definitive and it should be quite easy for you to post a few examples to prove your point. Please do.

"The "Bahble Bleavin" Protestant cults of FreeRepublic want us to believe everybody of the Orthodox/Catholic from the first bishops (including the Apostles?) to you and I are in error and are not true Christians. They believe every single one of us is either burning in hell or will be burning in hell for being members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church."

"Not a single person was saved until Martin Luther came along. Even the guys that put the Bible together are now burning in hell because they belonged to the Church (talk about your irony overload!) Think of all those Church members burning in hell. Every single one of them. If that's not proof the god of the Protestant cults is pure evil, I don't know what is."

633 posted on 06/18/2011 7:53:16 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Cronos
Just to clarify - I don't consider Lutherans, Anglicans, or Episcopalians to be members of the Protestant cults. I don't have a problem with main stream Protestantism. My problem is with these wacko American Bible cults that have sprung up in the last 300 years with their Sola Scriptura nonsense.

Surely you've seen these little agents of the devil poisoning every thread they slither onto that mentions the Virgin Mary or the Holy Tradition of the Church. They're like a cancer around here.

634 posted on 06/18/2011 8:07:57 AM PDT by getoffmylawn ("Nihilist? That must be exhausting." - The Dude)
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To: OLD REGGIE

Wow, amazing rationalizations! Gee, I would have a hard time believing ANY prots could say that.


635 posted on 06/18/2011 10:02:50 AM PDT by bkaycee
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To: daniel1212; Mad Dawg; wmfights; boatbums; Quix; RnMomof7; smvoice; metmom; 1000 silverlings; ...
Well, as you are wlliing and more reasonable, and the charge is that Rome has infallibly declared that it is infallible, based upon its infallibly declared formula, which renders its own declaration to be infallible and whatever else is in conformity with it.

ROFLOL! What a great way to start catching up by reading this.

... although division is necessary because of truth, there should not be an absolute disallowance to a centralized authority, local or wider, if it be Scriptural, but which disallows one which effectively presumes supremacy to the Scriptures, and a formulaic infallibility.

That sums it up about as well as any post I've read. The Scriptural model is for Christian churches to be independent and congregational in structure, but united by our faith and guided by the Holy Spirit. A decentralized structure is one of the best weapons against heresy.

636 posted on 06/18/2011 10:37:40 AM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights

ABSOLUTELY INDEED.


637 posted on 06/18/2011 10:50:40 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: Judith Anne; Salvation; NYer; Titanites; Amityschild; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

I’m curious if one of you could enlighten me

regarding

the “SECRET MARY SOCIETIES”

. . . particularly in terms of what they are purportedly about . . .

and why the secrecy?


638 posted on 06/18/2011 10:57:35 AM PDT by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wmfights; daniel1212
When I'm king of the world FR is going to display all the pingees of any post so that guys like me can tell when they're walking into an ambush. Were any other Catholics pinged to your post?

I enjoyed daniel1212's post too, It's a shame we're going to have to burn him.The Scriptural model is for Christian churches to be independent and congregational in structure, but united by our faith and guided by the Holy Spirit.

For my part, I would like to see more development of this thought. Was adherence to the Council of Jerusalem optional? Should it have been? Is or should the Nicene Creed and the Chalcedonian Definition be optional?

It's hard enough to know the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but if over HERE they're saying Jesus did not have a human will and over THERE they're saying he was a good man who was adopted into deity, when does such a divergence of opinion become deviation from 'faith'? How can one tell?

Real question. I left my gotcha in my other pants.

639 posted on 06/18/2011 10:58:57 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: bkaycee
Wow, amazing rationalizations! Gee, I would have a hard time believing ANY prots could say that.

I'm patiently waiting for all the examples. :-)

640 posted on 06/18/2011 11:02:53 AM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am a Biblical Unitarian?)
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