NOR
AS A LEVER
TO DISPENSE SPIRITUAL WISDOM
. . .
particularly, seeing as how
The Vatican Cult has none to dispense!
As to Vatican Cultists
refuting Proddy points
--in your fantasies only--
Actually, the most charitable comment is:
Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
Hi BB,
From those you mention, we see canned text accusation repeated countless times also.
They have been refuted, with reason and facts by patient posters many many times.
Even debunked, here come the same canned accusations.
After a long while, we shouldn’t be surprised to see responses and attacks in kind.
thanks for your post.
Translation: "That's right, boatbums is a woman, and you know how we regard women...wink, wink." Misogyny is alive and well amongst the RF Catholic Coalition. Except of course where the Blessed Mother is concerned, that's different.
Colleen is 4'11" and 105 pounds, and I am 6'5" and 235 pounds and unless she is firmly and squarely on a reasonably tall pedestal neither of us are happy. :)
Well, I am glad to hear you respect your wife. I hope it also extends to her thoughts. I would hope her opinions and comments are counted as relevant and important as your own.
Think of a Jewish marriage...
Fitting observations, imho.
Hmmmmmmmmm
independent thinking . . .
Hmmmmmmm
last I checked . . . there are certain basic requirements necessary
to achieve that level of functioning.
However, scrolling on by is a small price to pay if it keeps some folks off the streets.
goml — you can ignore the “Biblical unitarian’s” posts — the unitarians use “Bahble Bleavin” to justify their points for Universal Unitarianism — and you know what that means (basically nothing!)
So, do I take it that you’re going to stop cribbing about “making personal remarks” seeing as your posts do exactly that?
The Lutherans believe in the True/Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, they believe in baptism for the remission of sins, they even believe in Holy Penance as a sacrament (but don't practise it much* -- this requires a longer explanation) -- they are much, much closer to us in orthodoxy just as are the traditional anglicans (the anglo-Catholics are even closer).
These beliefs are diametrically opposite from the Presbyterians and Pentecostals (note to mention the do-it-yourself-churchers and Unitarians) that comprise the FR anti-Catholic crowd.
In fact the Presbyterians and Pentecostals are at diametrically opposite ends of the spectrum --- Presbyterianism removed the joy and spontaneity and the deep sense of wonder that is in the mass and just took the 2nd reading (skipping the gospels and old testament) -- and took that to an extreme. Pentecostalism was an adverse reaction to that and they went to the other extreme.
In the meanwhile, even Luther and Calvin realised that they had opened floodgates when first people disbelieved in Mary's perpetual virginity (which L and C believed in) and then disbelieved in Mary's virginity and finally ended up as unitarians believing that Jesus was not God -- Luther and Calvin and Zwingli had synods to cut these off as they knew the anarchy this would entail. And we see the anarchy now...
MB: Which faith is that? The faith of Luther? Calvin? Zwingli? Amee Semple Macpherson? Joseph Smith? The faith that you came up with last night while gazing fondly in the mirror?
pnsm: Mark, your response doesn't even rise to the level of Darwin Award or blond joke category - it's that pathetic.
Ah, Mark -- you see, only us Christians (whether Catholic or lutheran or anglican or PResbyterian or Pentecostal etc.) say out loudly that Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior. the non-Christian groups don't
But, good questions, Mark — the crypto-Moslems or Unitarian Universalists don’t want to talk about what they believe, rather to attack Christian belief.
While your sect takes something from the Bible, it leaves out a lot, while it takes one extreme of joy, it leaves out the reflection, while it takes the mystery it leaves out the solemnity. It doesn't accept the inexorable, rather ignores it
As I've said before, your sect fails because be just song and dance without detailed, deep study is as bad as to be dry text without the joy. The balance is lost, the tying force that brings the loss of fear of the inexorable abyss is gone in both of these extremes and they lead to despair in one and delusion in the other.Remember that the main problem in the philosophy of your sect is the separation or compartmentalisation of God and of His worship -- it is not this OR that, but this AND that.
Besides, BB, you can ask Quix yourself if he believes that Jesse, the demonic-possesed con-man Duplantis preaches “the basics of the Pentecostal faith” or not.
i dunno -- probably you can ask these guys
Remember, Jesse noted the following new revelation of Jesse about heaven
Oh, wait, don't you defend Benny's 9 gods by saying Quix: "Many folks assume that because Benny Hinn doesn't fit our notions of integrity and a lot of other truly very important factors--GOD SIMPLY COULD NOT AND WOULD NOT EVER USE HIM IN ANY WAY FOR ANY REASON IN ANY CONTEXT." or If God chooses to use Benny, that’s God’s business.
And for Jesse the demonic con-man what little I’ve watched of Jesse has been edifying. He is exceedingly Biblical—way above average, imho.
And the winnah!!
Which you didn't answer -- but never mind, your silence speaketh. I would advise learning another language -- you may not become fluent or even intermediate level in it, but it will show you that a lot of what we think is driven by the language(s) we think in -- English lacks preciseness in many ways and other languages which use cases are highly complex
The problem occurs when one reads something in English translated from another language and doesn't realise that hte other language pictures it differently.
So, do try to learn another language -- not Spanish which is too easy, but try German or Italian (which is also easy but has better phonetics and grammar challenges imho). If you really want to broaded your mind, try a language that doesn't use the Latin script or try a non-Indo-European language
And thanks for reminding us Quix that “proddy” only refers to your particular cult. The mainstream of conservative, religious Protestants reject the demonic Benny Hinn and Jesse Duplantis among others.
That was a truthful summary of the posts I’ve been reading here for years. It wasn’t a rant.
DOODNESS.
I must be slipping.
I should redouble my efforts.
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