Posted on 06/13/2011 3:57:07 PM PDT by HarleyD
One of the more controversial teachings of the Catholic church deals with the perpetual virginity of Mary. This doctrine maintains that Mary remained a virgin after the birth of Jesus and that biblical references suggesting Jesus had siblings are really references to cousins (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
As the veneration of Mary increased throughout the centuries, the vehicle of Sacred Tradition became the means of promoting new doctrines not explicitly taught in the Bible. The virginity of Mary is clearly taught in scripture when describing the birth of Jesus. But is the doctrine of her continued virginity supported by the Bible? Did Mary lose her virginity after Jesus was born? Does the Bible reveal that Mary had other children, that Jesus had brothers and sisters?
The Bible does not come out and declare that Mary remained a virgin and that she had no children. In fact, the Bible seems to state otherwise: (All quotes are from the NASB.)
• Matthew 1:24-25 - "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took as his wife, and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."
• Matthew 12:46-47 - "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
• Mark 6:2-3 - "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? "Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?"
• John 2:12 - "After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days."
• Acts 1:14 - "These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers."
• 1 Cor. 9:4-5 - "Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?"
• Gal. 1:19 - But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
In Greek, the word for brother is adelphos and sister is adelphe. This word is used in different contexts: of children of the same parents (Matt. 1:2; 14:3), descendants of parents (Acts 7:23, 26; Heb. 7:5), the Jews as a whole (Acts 3:17, 22), etc. Therefore, the term brother (and sister) can and does refer to the cousins of Jesus.
There is certainly merit in this argument, However, different contexts give different meanings to words. It is not legitimate to say that because a word has a wide scope of meaning, that you may then transfer any part of that range of meaning to any other text that uses the word. In other words, just because the word brother means fellow Jews or cousin in one place, does not mean it has the same meaning in another. Therefore, each verse should be looked at in context to see what it means.
Lets briefly analyze a couple of verses dealing with the brothers of Jesus.
• Matthew 12:46-47, "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, "Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You."
• Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?"
Psalm 69, A Messianic Psalm
There are many arguments pro and con concerning Jesus siblings. But the issue cannot be settled without examining Psalm 69, a Messianic Psalm. Jesus quotes Psalm 69:4 in John 15:25, "But they have done this in order that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their Law, they hated Me without a cause."
He also quotes Psalm 69:9 in John 2:16-17, "and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these things away; stop making My Fathers house a house of merchandise." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Thy house will consume me."
Clearly, Psalm 69 is a Messianic Psalm since Jesus quoted it in reference to Himself two times. The reason this is important is because of what is written between the verses that Jesus quoted.
To get the whole context, here is Psalm 69:4-9, "Those who hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of my head; Those who would destroy me are powerful, being wrongfully my enemies, What I did not steal, I then have to restore. 5O God, it is Thou who dost know my folly, And my wrongs are not hidden from Thee. 6May those who wait for Thee not be ashamed through me, O Lord God of hosts; May those who seek Thee not be dishonored through me, O God of Israel, 7Because for Thy sake I have borne reproach; Dishonor has covered my face. 8I have become estranged from my brothers, and an alien to my mothers sons. 9For zeal for Thy house has consumed me, And the reproaches of those who reproach Thee have fallen on me."
This messianic Psalm clearly shows that Jesus has brothers. As Amos 3:7 says, "Surely the Lord God does nothing unless He reveals His secret counsel to His servants the prophets." Gods will has been revealed plainly in the New Testament and prophetically in the Old. Psalm 69 shows us that Jesus had brothers.
Did Mary have other children? The Bible seems to suggest yes. Catholic Tradition says no. Which will you trust?
Of course, the Catholic will simply state that even this phrase "my mother's sons" is in reference not to his siblings, but to cousins and other relatives. This is a necessary thing for the Catholic to say, otherwise, the perpetual virginity of Mary is threatened and since that contradicts Roman Catholic tradition, an interpretation that is consistent with that tradition must be adopted.
The question is, "Was Jesus estranged by His brothers?". Yes, He was. John 7:5 says "For not even His brothers were believing in Him." Furthermore, Psalm 69:8 says both "my brothers" and "my mother's sons." Are these both to be understood as not referring to His siblings? Hardly. The Catholics are fond of saying that "brothers" must mean "cousins." But, if that is the case, then when we read "an alien to my mother's sons" we can see that the writer is adding a further distinction and narrowing the scope of meaning. In other words, Jesus was alienated by his siblings, His very half-brothers begotten from Mary.
It is sad to see the Roman Catholic church go to such lengths to maintain Mary's virginity, something that is a violation of biblical law to be married and fill the earth.
You’ve already proved my point.
In your fantasies.
And with that tired teenage comeback, I’ll leave the thread to you - for more of the same - over the weekend.
hmmm... and how come I never saw or see any of your posts criticizing your cohorts for doing this? For years your posts telling these cohorts to stop it were silent. Then suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and all the cribbing starts
It's like your posts talking about "personal attacks" -- its' fine if the cohorts do this, or your post does it, but on the other side... ooooh.. 'crib, cry, cry, waaa, waaa'
Mk 16:16, Lk 13:3, Jn 6:54, Matt 23:13 are Jesus's own words telling us that
These are the Lord's very own words His very own statements, exhortations, commands.
this is not the philosophy or wisdom of men, this what God Himself has commanded.
As the author points out, there are many places where scripture states this including the following:
Act 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
Act 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.
Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
The apostles and elders are not the church...
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
If someone can't see the church in these few verses alone, and see that the church is the assembly of believers, certainly God has blinded their minds to see it, or, the preserved words of God are completely meaningless and not worthy of belief to those who follow religions instead of God...
Agreed. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Or, in the posts here...
Contextually it doesn’t make sense to about Jesus’ brothers as “cousins” while talking about the “carpenter’s son”.
And the winner is,,,the Catholic religion...
Them Catholics worship (venerate, same thing) a supposed image of Jesus on the rotted skin of an avacado...They see Mary in a water stain from a leaking roof on the ceiling...They see Jesus face in a dill pickle...They see Mary in the squished remains of a bug on the windshield...
The recent popes acknowledge that the ghost of Mary shows up all over the world who gives prophetic knowledge to Catholics such as; there's going to be another war...And, tomorrow you will be older than you are today...
Catholics pray to people for miracles whom no one has a clue whether the person is in heaven or hell...And if someone's healed, or they find their lost car keys, that person they prayed to becomes a Saint...
They say Mary dispenses Salvation, mercy and grace so they pray to Mary instead of God in spite of what God says in the scriptures
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Instead, they go to Mary and none of them has in their spirit the assurance of eternal security...Duh....
But regardless of this and almost countless other anti biblical practices, let's put some guy named Jesse Duplantis in the spotlight and make him the poster child for all the born again, bible believing non Catholics...What JD puts out is cotton candy compared to what your religion dishes out...
I don't have that problem...And I wouldn't waste my time with it...
There are countless numbers of trained experts out there who have devoted their lives to learning other languages including translating Hebrew and Greek into English...
I would never be as good as those guys and with all due respect, I doubt that you will either...
I'll even go further and say that I doubt anyone has improved on what the King James translators determined to be the correct translation of those languages...
I have yet to see anyone's translation that added knowledge to, or improved upon the translation of the KJV...Seen a lot of deception tho...
I have been a member of FR for 10 years and I can't recall seeing more than just a few such crazy posts. Furthermore, the far out "nuts", from all sides of the spectrum, disappear pretty quickly.
Your "truthful" summary, posted below, is very definitive and it should be quite easy for you to post a few examples to prove your point. Please do.
"The "Bahble Bleavin" Protestant cults of FreeRepublic want us to believe everybody of the Orthodox/Catholic from the first bishops (including the Apostles?) to you and I are in error and are not true Christians. They believe every single one of us is either burning in hell or will be burning in hell for being members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church."
"Not a single person was saved until Martin Luther came along. Even the guys that put the Bible together are now burning in hell because they belonged to the Church (talk about your irony overload!) Think of all those Church members burning in hell. Every single one of them. If that's not proof the god of the Protestant cults is pure evil, I don't know what is."
Surely you've seen these little agents of the devil poisoning every thread they slither onto that mentions the Virgin Mary or the Holy Tradition of the Church. They're like a cancer around here.
Wow, amazing rationalizations! Gee, I would have a hard time believing ANY prots could say that.
ROFLOL! What a great way to start catching up by reading this.
... although division is necessary because of truth, there should not be an absolute disallowance to a centralized authority, local or wider, if it be Scriptural, but which disallows one which effectively presumes supremacy to the Scriptures, and a formulaic infallibility.
That sums it up about as well as any post I've read. The Scriptural model is for Christian churches to be independent and congregational in structure, but united by our faith and guided by the Holy Spirit. A decentralized structure is one of the best weapons against heresy.
ABSOLUTELY INDEED.
I’m curious if one of you could enlighten me
regarding
the “SECRET MARY SOCIETIES”
. . . particularly in terms of what they are purportedly about . . .
and why the secrecy?
I enjoyed daniel1212's post too, It's a shame we're going to have to burn him.The Scriptural model is for Christian churches to be independent and congregational in structure, but united by our faith and guided by the Holy Spirit.
For my part, I would like to see more development of this thought. Was adherence to the Council of Jerusalem optional? Should it have been? Is or should the Nicene Creed and the Chalcedonian Definition be optional?
It's hard enough to know the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but if over HERE they're saying Jesus did not have a human will and over THERE they're saying he was a good man who was adopted into deity, when does such a divergence of opinion become deviation from 'faith'? How can one tell?
Real question. I left my gotcha in my other pants.
I'm patiently waiting for all the examples. :-)
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