Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." -- Luke 1:47
It is undeniable, that "Savior" in this sense alludes to being saved from sin. So the question is: If Mary had never sinned, or was never guilty of original sin, as the Catholic Church states, why would she need a Savior?
As in English, in Greek word for "Savior" ("soter") comes from the word for "safe" ("sozo"). In modern English, the connection between "safe" and "heal" is largely lost, but "salvation" retains the root, "salv," from "salve," meaning "heal" or "a healing ointment." Thus, the notion of a "savior" being one who restores health, or undoes harm is not a completely incorrect notion. But neither should it overshadow the fundamental meaning that a "savior" is one who prevents harm, as much as one who restores one from harm.
Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that one who has been prevented from original sin should rejoice in her "savior" from original sin.
In fact, the term "savior" in Greek has a connotation of a god who preserves his people. As explained in the Protestant lexicon, Strong's Concordance,:
The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence.(Wigram) The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes), active personalities in world affairs (e.g., Epicurus) and rulers (e.g., Ptolemy Philopator, and later Roman Emporers). (cf. LSJ and BDAG)God certainly was Mary's Lord and Protector, who kept her safe from sin. That does not mean she sinned.
But doesn't Paul state that "all have sinned?" Is Paul wrong?
Not in the least. As Protestant theologian Charles Spurgeon explains (in an alternate context) the meaning of "all," (in Greek, "pas"):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).In context, what Paul is saying is that Jews (in general) and Greeks (in general), and every other people (in general) have sinned. To establish that Jews are no better than any other people, he quotes the prophet Isaiah,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.In this passage, the prophet is describing the Jews around him, and uses the phrase, "There is no-one righteous, not one." It's been argued that the prophet is describing in a prophetic sense not just the Jews around him, but the universal condition of man, as a result of original sin. It might make sense to say that all we who have committed original sin are not righteous in a sense, since our righteousness is imputed righteousness, earned not by our own effort, but by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know.
" "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But that same passage asserts that not one has done anything good at all, that they know not the way of peace, and there is no fear of God among anyone. Even if our righteousness is merely imputed, and our ability to do good relies entirely on Christ acting through us, regenerated Christians do good, know the way of peace and fear God. As such, we know that Paul is using that passage only to establish that Jews need Christ as much as Gentiles, for they have been as wicked as Gentiles, he is not using that passage to describe saved Christians.
But the Blessed Virgin Mary lived (in part) before the Holy Sacrifice, the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit? How can she have been saved from sin?
The bible explicitly states that salvation occurred anticipating these events. For the prophet Simeon stated upon seeing the infant Jesus, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." How could this be? Whose salvation has he witnessed?
Mary's.
.
God created man in His own image, and Roman Catholics have been returning the favor since their founding.
===============================
INDEED.
I think it's akin to the devastation satan wrought with the 4 words . . . "Did God really say . . . "
MANY PAPISTS
ACTIVELY TREAT, SPEAK OF, ACT TOWARD, WRITE SONGS TO, WRITE POETRY TO, OBVIOUSLY THINK OF, DWELL MENTALLY AND SPIRITULALY ON the farcical Mary personage AS THOUGH SHE WERE DIVINE . . . attributing all manner of DIVINE powers and attributes to her.
WITNESS YET AGAIN:
Here's the title:
And it carries the official sanctions of:
ni•hil ob•stat
n.
1. Roman Catholic Church An attestation by a church censor that a book contains nothing damaging to faith or morals.
2. Official approval, especially of an artistic work.
WITH RICHARD CARDINAL CUSHING’S IMPRIMATUR
Let me track down the brief portion of quotes upthread . . .
Here they are:
However, as we've seen through a variety of sources--a pile of them in Ferraro's manual about the Rosary--the Roman Catholic et al/Vatican Edifice disagrees with a lot of the claims of RC's hereon to the contrary.
p.32
.
[Quixicated emphases below]
Mary is crowned Queen of heaven and earth, dispenser of all graces . . .
p32
4 - She became Queen of Purgatory, where she exercises her power as mediatrix in behalf of these suffering souls.
5 - She became Queen of us sinners, to assist us through the dangers of this life and to help us in difficulties.
6 - She became the ruler of hell, that trembles at her slightest gaze and is defeated by her power.
"Just as a rock extracted from earth will precipitate into the abyss, so will man, left without Mary's help, quickly slide toward hell." --Richard of St Victor
p37
Sacred Heart of Jesus, Thy kingdom come; Thy kingdom come through Mary! --Partial Indulgence
p41
"Mary is the tree of life to those who grasp her, and he is happy who hold her fast." --Prov. 3:18
p43
1 - "Hail Mary, beloved daughter of the Father, Mother of the Divine Son, Spouse of the Holy Spirit, complement of the most august Trinity!"
p45
6 - To her was granted grace greater than that conferred upon all others, 'that she might vanquish sin in every respect.'
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's vanquishing sin was unnecessary--or ineffectual without Mary's assistance?]
p46
7 - "Mary is the dawn of God because, just as the dawn marks the end of darkness and the beginning of day, so Mary indicates the end of vices and the beginning of virtue."
.
[Qx: I guess Christ's conquering on The Cross and HIS conquering trip to hell were unncessary?]
9 - God loved Mary so much that He gave her the keys to His heart. 'No one can go to God without Mary drawing him.'
.
[Qx: I guess Holy Spirit has been relegated to a 'Walter Mitty' role as spouse of Mary? That's SOME POWER to cancel & take over HOLY SPIRIT'S role to draw men to God!]
p47
4 - "Mary, trusting in the word of the angel, destroyed the sin Eve committed by trusting in the serpent.'
.
[Qx: Evidently, she beat Christ to the job of vanquishing sin!]
5 - "She desired the safety of everyone, went in search of it, and obtained it; it was also through her that this salvation was wrought."
.
[QX: What an unnecessary waste of precious Blood and suffering on THE CROSS!!!/sar]
p47
10 - "As Noah's Ark saved all the animals that entered it, so Mary saves all the souls that entrust themselves to her care."
p50
8 - "If she were not so holy as she is, how could God appoint her to be the ladder of Paradise, the advocate of the world, meatrix between HIm and us?"
p50
4 - "By becoming Mother of God, Mary belongs to the order of hypostatic union; hence she participates IN the infinite sanctity of God."
Ok, I see what you mean. But could you explain how/where it is demonstrated that the role of Joseph overshadowed the history of God’s chosen people? I’m not getting that point.
I like your explanation. You have a way with words:)
Scripture is not precisely clear
as to exactly WHEN in Heaven, God will wipe away every tear.
Evidently even now, there are relatively few tears. However, a number of narratives mention occasional tears.
This is the first narrative I’ve read wherein Mary was seen crying. Usually Christ or the angel accompanying the visitor notes that Mary is not filling ANY of the purported Heavenly roles concocted by the Vatican.
Occasionally, Mary will exhort the visitor to tell earthly folks to stop such nonsense as praying to her; asking favors of her etc.
And some such visitors reporting such narratives have been life long RC’s awash in such practices. I don’t have an example handy.
When you quit writing like someone trying to get bank deposit numbers for “Nigerian Gold,” maybe someone will answer you. Until then, go away.
SIN is SIN. It is not what goes into a man that makes him sinful. It is what comes out of him - out of his mind, heart, and mouth.
Sin is lawlessness. Breaking the Law. What has that to do with Mary? Christ was sinless because of what came out of Him. He was full of the Law.
That we cannot approach the Father but through a mediator is for our sakes, not for YHWH's. We would perish in His full glory because of our sins. It is not a matter of His being defiled. He cannot be defiled.
Whatever condition that Christ is in comparison to the full glory of the Father, He is not that, lest every single thing that looked upon him would have perished. That obviously didn't happen.
So trying to say that Christ needed to be born of a sinless mother is simply absurd.
Scriptural reference please?
Fail.
Hoss
Did you ever do any Hebrew? A language with two tenses and both of 'em can mean past present or future. It's enough to make grown men weep.
Time, sequences, that sort of stuff, doesn't do really well in thinking about heaven.
But here on earth it's time for me to go to bed.
Kind of you to say so.
Praise GOD!
Zzzzzzz
:-)
Regarding Luke 1:28 – the only people lying here is the RCC. Here’s the text IN GREEK:
καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.
κεχαριτωμένη, is the pf. pass. ptcp. of χαριτόω (charitoō). It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. REPEATED: It is a passive participle derived from charitoō. It does not mean "full of grace" or ‘completely filled with grace’ which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek. What does it mean then? κεχαριτωμένη and its definitions :
5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”
5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar•ee•to•o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.
There is only one place where ‘full of grace’ is actually found in the GREEK text (John 1:14) throughout Scripture. John 1:14 says, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” The GREEK text:
Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας·
Notice the difference: πλήρης (plērēs) and χάρις (charis) in John 1:14 and κεχαριτωμένη, in Luke 1:28.
The only place where ‘full of grace’ is actually found in the GREEK TEXT, i.e., “plaras karitos’ (NOT kexaritomena [κεχαριτωμένη]) is in reference to CHRIST, not Mary. AND HE STANDS ALONE.
The RCC gets it wrong because the RCC uses the Latin Vulgate, a Latin translation done by Jerome in the 4th century, rather than the Greek text in Luke 1:28. Erroneously translating κεχαριτωμένη, as “full of grace” instead of “favored one”. Every other translation (which btw actually translates from the GREEK text rather than from the LATIN) translates Luke 1:28 as ‘favored’ not ‘full of grace’:
1. The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear - "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."
2. The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament - And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
3. American Standard Version - "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."
4. English Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
5. Today's English Version - '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
6. King James Version- "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
7. New American Standard Bible - "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
8. New International Version - "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
9. New King James Version - "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!
10. Revised Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'
11. New Revised Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
12. The New Century Version - The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
13. New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”
14. The Cambridge Paragraph Bible - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.
15. The Holman Christian Standard Bible - "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."
16. International Standard Version - '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"
#1 - Now you can either believe every single Greek scholar on the planet who actually worked from the GREEK manuscripts translated Luke 1:28 WRONG, and the RCC is the only one who got it right; or you can do as I do and acknowledge facts that it’s the RCC who is trying to swim upstream on this passage.
#2 - Had Luke intended to use ‘full of grace’ instead of ‘favored one’ he would have said plaras karitos not kexaritomena. But he didn’t because he knew the only one ever born sinless was Christ. Had Mary been without sin she would NOT have said “God my Savior” in Luke 1:47 – ‘Theos egō sōtēr” (θεῷ τῷ σωτῆρί μου·) - egō [μου·] is personal, it is translated ME, MY, MINE. You cannot get around μου· in that passage no matter how much one tries to corrupt the text. One without sin does not need a Savior, only a sinner needs a Savior. If Mary was without sin, then she LIED in this passage! That would then make her a sinner wouldn’t it?!?!
RC response . . .
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!DEMANDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
PRODDYS CONFORM in their posts
to RC sensibilities and constructions on reality.
LOL.
Bless you Bro.
How’s your feet
and your breathing?
PRAISE GOD FOR YOUR FAITHFULNESS TO HIS WORD AND TRUTH.
Hi CG, I’m am interested in this post, and would like to know the origin. If it isn’t your own work, but is authored by another person or group of people, would you mind sharing the specific source with us?
Thanks in advance :)
If you are interested in an online aid I can suggest Great Treasures Online Greek Study which might be helpful. There are several but that is the one I go to most of the time.
See, although most concordances DIRECTLY LIE and claim that the Greek word is “charitou,” the word is actually, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning “completely filled with grace.”
The greek word used here in Luke is κεχαριτωμένη ...
Any first semester Greek student would recognize this verb form as the perfect tense of χαριτoω. The κε at the beginning is the usual consonantal reduplication that characterizes the perfect tense verb formation.
The word does not mean "completely filled with grace" as you claim.
These are the lexicons I have in my library:
1. Frieberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
2. Louw & Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT
3. Liddell & Scott, Greek Lexicon
4. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT
5. Moulton & Milligan, Vocabulary of the Greek NT
6. Gingrich, Greek New Testament Lexicon
and finally, the scholarly standard in Greek Lexical work today
7. Bauer, Ardt, Gingrich & Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Not one of them even remotely suggests that the meaning is anything more than the simple "one who has been favored/graced."
You answered this completely before I posted.
A very nice post maam. Thank you; I also posted a brief response though not as detailed as yours.
Easy... good questions. Adam and Eve were made from the dust of the earth and a rib and received the breath of God. I don’t know exactly how the angels were created. But Jesus was formed in the womb with a human egg and the Holy Spirit. No one has the full truth, especially me. I put it out for discussion, not argument.
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