Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian
A new book by one of the country’s most influential evangelical pastors, challenging traditional Christian views of heaven, hell and eternal damnation, has created an uproar among evangelical leaders
In a book to be published this month, the pastor, Rob Bell, known for his provocative views and appeal among the young, describes as “misguided and toxic” the dogma that “a select few Christians will spend forever in a peaceful, joyous place called heaven, while the rest of humanity spends forever in torment and punishment in hell with no chance for anything better.”
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Since when do we start listening to theological advise by people who consider themselves first to be "poet/artist/dramatist"? I don't believe John Calvin ever referred to himself as any of those things.
poet/artist/dramatist: In other words, quite possibly, a liberal.
In my estimation, liberalism is just one tiny step removed from Communism. And, of course, Communism is an atheistic political movement. That's why I have no hesitancy (nor any doubt whatsoever) in stating that adherents to that Godless manifestation of evil are justifiably doomed to everlasting punishment.
By "Christian", do you mean the Disciples of Christ? Although the church of Christ and the Disciples of Christ are rooted in the Stone-Campbell reformation movement, they traveled very divergent paths.
The Disciples of Christ are a member of the National Council of Churches and I find them far too liberal, both politically and in terms of Christian teaching. On the other hand, the churches of Christ (each congregation is autonomous) are almost always Conservative, both in terms of politics and and doctrine. Some accuse the churches of Christ as being "narrow" but I personally find such unwavering strictness to Christian principles laudable.
Exactly, thank you.
Anyone who tries to argue that hell is NOT real and people will NOT face torment, are obfuscating what the scriptures tells us. This is a different gospel and is to be soundly rejected. I think you're right on target; this is liberalism in the church. After what we have seen from Wisconsin, I'm more convince that liberalism and Communism goes hand-in-hand.
Yeah, John Calvin’s the go-to-guy for theological and ethical advice. Here’s his money quote: “Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt.” Calvin’s modus operandi was to assist God by making sure they died sooner versus later. By one count, he gave approval to 57 executions, including at least one because the person disagreed with his stance on killing heretics.
Since the neo-Calvinist’s have decided Bell is a heretic, they are now duty-bound by Calvin himself to agree that he deserves the death sentence. Perhaps that is what Piper meant with his tweet, “Goodbye Rob Bell”.
I do tend to think that the writers of the Song of Solomon, Psalms, Ecclesiastes, and Revelation were poets/artists/dramatists. Mary waxed poetic in her song. All in all, I would trust these theologians more than Calvin.
No. We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. We are born in sin. It is our nature.
Tag line
I find all sorts of things "attribute" to John Calvin, often by many people who have never read his works quoting from other sources who never read his works. Well, I just loaded down my John Calvin Comprehensive Collection and cannot find that quote anywhere. Since you seem to hold a grudge towards Calvin, it would help if you would reference your source. Where are you quoting from?
I suspect Piper tweet Rob Bell his "goodbye" simply because he is a heretic. If a person doesn't believe in the torment of hell, then they certainly don't believe in what our Lord Jesus had to say on the matter in the rich man and Lazarus. After all, this WAS coming from God himself. Or how about:
Mat 18:9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
Rob Bell states that he doesn't believe in Gandhi being lost either, even though Gandhi flatly rejected Christ as Lord. Doesn't the scripture, "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you shall be save." mean anything? Do you believe Ghandi went to hell or not?
BTW-If people have a problem with people assisting God in putting to death heretics, they most likely will have a problem with Samuel, Elijah or David who had no problem chopping false priests to bits. We are on a gentler side of the church age where "vengeance" belongs to the Lord. But God still promises to repay. This is something Rob Bell should take to heart.
lets see now, I think Christ, while on earth, founded a religion on the Apostles now known as Catholicism, therefore, everyone who denies His religion is denying that Christ had the authority to do so and is therefore denying Christ.......hell is hot
Bell’s promo video is a series of questions. He doesn’t state that Gandhi isn’t lost. He asks about the theology of a person who is sure they know where Gandhi ended up. He asks provocative questions to help us think through the implications of what we believe. Then one blogger jumps to horrendous conclusions because of the questions and 20,000 people give it a thumbs up. Again, with the level of reading comprehension being shown here, why would would trust what any of these individuals would say about the Bible? Piper and most others jumping to conclusions about this book have not read it.
I don’t pretend to know the eternal destiny of anyone, because the mysteries of God and his work in the hearts of people is not fully revealed to me. I believe we can only know the Father and experience heaven through the grace of Jesus, and that without receiving that grace we are lost to the fires of hell (is that clear enough?). I do not pretend to know the extent and constraints of exactly how God decides to work that out. I believe Gandhi went where God decided he should be. For me to say otherwise is blasphemous and arrogant.
The Calvin quote can be found on the Calvin College website,http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.iv.xvi.xxii.html. It is in Philip Schaff’s History of the Christian Church. It is a textbook written in the 1800’s by a Reformed writer, and considered reliable. Here is a full-length scholarly book that focuses on the execution surrounding this quote. http://www.amazon.com/Calvin-Murder-Servetus-Stanford-Rives/dp/1439208689
>>Nevertheless, it’s not hard for me to imagine a supreme bliss while observing the endless punishment and eternal suffering of...<<
It is hard for me. My problem is that I may tend to cut people too much slack and take seriously, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” I would rather not watch any depraved man suffer. I would that he simply be separated from the rest of us for our safety.
Being a man, I know the heart of man.
No, by Christian I mean the “Christian” church, which is an offshoot of Church of Christ. Except we allowed instruments. I play bass.
Few people balk at the devil going to hell because they assume the devil is bad enough and God just enough to warrant it. Only when it comes to us do we question its justness. But if it is just for the devil, can we assume it is never just for those of us who are “like” the devil in attitudes and actions, especially as they are directed toward God?
Hell must also be in full harmony with the love of God. God loves justice, holiness, and righteousness so much that He created hell. The love of God for His own nature, His law, His universe, and His people, makes hell a product of love as well as justice.
But what is hell? The bible is very clear that it exists in eternity. It does not say people suffer for time unending. I think of it more like an event frozen in a piece of lucite, or a photograph. That is, the person may be destroyed, but their destruction does not “happen” for eternity. Rather, it is “final” and preserved for all eternity. They do not survive the second death and they “stay dead”. The rest of us go on to eternal LIFE, which is the opposite of death.
Your analogy works only if you consider that the woman in your example really deserved the alternative, the torture
First, I cannot take credit for the analogy. Second, I think it’s pretty good. Third, I know people who think they are being really good people and they really are. They are not Christian because they simply do not take the plunge away from modern intellectual perspective. Now, I know this means that according to the bible they will not receive eternal life, but just allowing them to die and “come to an end” as described in Ecclesiastes seems reasonable - and by reasonable, I mean according to what I see in scripture. They will not be protected from the second death. And the word “death” means, uh, death. The opposite of life.
Thanks for the clarification. There are a few church of Christ congregations here in Texas that use instrumental accompaniment, although my preference is for a cappella. That's based upon a strict (some characterize it as legalistic) reading of the Bible but I'll also admit that it's the tradition most familiar to me. And I realize that there are divisions with how Communion is to be served as well as churchwide vs. individual support of charities.
Those matters notwithstanding, since we're all Conservatives here on FR, what also appeals to me about the church of Christ is its almost monolithic anti-liberal politics. Because of the autonomy of each congregation, there may be some that have broken away from that view but I haven't encountered any yet in this part of the country.
During the presidential election season of summer 2008, I took an extended vacation by car throughout the South and Southwest, visiting various church of Christ locations along the way. I was gratified to see not one single Obama bumper sticker on any car in a church of Christ parking lot. I sincerely think that support for Obama (and all forms of liberalism) is counter to the teachings of Christ. From what I gathered during that vacation, most of my brethren evidently agree.
That is not correct. Each TULIP point needs the other four. Since salvation is completely from grace and since the elect are saved from before time, Christ did not die to save those God did not want to save. If unlimited atonement is false then Total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace and perseverance of saints also is false.
Yes. That is calvinism and that is christian belief
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.