Posted on 02/05/2011 11:07:42 AM PST by Gamecock
NOPE.
NO SALE.
I’ve behaved quite charitably repeatedly toward a number of RC’s on FR.
EVERY BLESSED TIME,
The snarky ones show up and start spewing virulent hostility, hate, condescension, arrogance, spiteful vengeful bitterness etc. etc. etc.
from the beginning of my first days on FR.
I have periodically again and again tried to cultivate civil, polite, mutually respectful exchanges.
EVERY TIME some member of variouis RC Rabid Cliques on FR would quickly shred all such hope with their arrogant and personally assaultive postings.
The only possible conclusion I’m left with after 10+ years of such is that it is
INSTITUTIONALIZED MENTALITIES THAT WE ARE RELENTLESSLY CONFRONTED WITH.
The attitudes are part and parcel of the heretical, idolatrous, blasphemous, ARROGANT INSTITUTIONALIZED HORRIFIC HOGWASH so overtly spewed from every Vatican tower and output.
I rarely find a shred of
—honesty
—objectivity
—insight
—candor
—integrity
—consistency
—solid Biblical understanding
—historical accuracy
—logical thought processes
—. . .
. . .
from even a single RC except for 3-4 glaring and usually silent exceptions.
If a new such rare RC comes along—it’s wonderful.
However, they usually also quickly abandon such dialogues because they are typically as disgusted with the Rabid Clique type RC’s as the Proddys are.
So, y’all have only y’all to thank for the current state of affairs.
I think MOST of us Proddys have reluctantly accepted the reality and decided to use the ignorantly arrogant Rabid Clique types as foils to write to the silent lurkers.
The RC’s aren’t the least bit interested in mutually respectful dialogue so we have no need to pretend about it either.
Case in point, they have refused to respond about the horrific statistics honorably at all.
Instead, they just rant and rave and play dishonorable plagiaristic games of great haughty hostility and shameful assaultiveness—deflecting and sabotaging any hope of any civil dialogue about such things.
Your nice sounding appeal just has absolutely no congruence with the reality from the RC camp hereon lo these many years—none whatsoever.
Maybe some of us Proddys are reluctant and slow learners to have to come to terms with that reality. However, once we have, we no longer have to be successfully teased with such seductive deviousness as we often see RC types play—and are playing still.
We can go on posting hard facts about the Vatican system and all it’s inconsistencies, horrifically INSTITUTIONALIZED, APPLAUDED AND EMBELLISHED idolatries and blasphemies . . . knowing that we’ll get the same hollow DENIALS, rants and personal assaults as usual and possibly more shrill than usual, on occasion.
Doesn’t matter greatly. THE TRUTH IS THE TRUTH whether Biblical, theological or historical.
NON-DAFFYNITIONARY words carry conventional meanings in the real world regardless of the wails and whines of the RC’s !!!DEMANDING!!! !!!!CONTROL!!!! of the vocabulary
of the Religion Forum; of the RM, of JimRob, of the world.
Sooooooooo, dream on. . . just be sure to place the blame for lack of civil discourse where it solidly belongs—on the shoulders of FR’s ever present ever relentless Rabid Clique types.
IF THEY CAN’T CONFORM ALL PRODDYS AND THE WHOLE RELIGION FORUM TO THEIR SENSIBILITIES AND VATICAN !!!CONTROL!!! STANDARDS, expectations, comfort zones—then they will chronically pull out the stops and blame Proddys in every underhanded irrational way imaginable.
They are in no possible nor convincing way interested in true, mutually respectful dialogue. NOPE. NO HOW, NEVER.
Have repeatedly tried to cultivate it only to EVERY TIME have just such RC’s sabotage it and shred it to powder.
No more. Been there and done that repeatedly with many scars to show for it.
Even the pretentiously old timer lofty scholarly grandfatherly types also typically have descended in one or more ways, sooner or later to the same nastiness.
No thanks.
Y’all may not be able to tell the difference between educational, exhortive satire, mocking and ridicule, and y’all’s chronic mean-spirited virulent bitter vengeful hostility and nastiness—BUT GOD CAN.
And so can the lurkers.
Proddys really don’t tend toward personal assaults. Rabid Clique types chronically go for the jugular and the heart in the most vicious, underhanded, unwarranted, dishonest and unfitting ways.
AND THEN THEY HAVE THE BRAZEN IRRATIONALITY TO EXPECT PRODDY RESPECT FOR ANYTHING THEY SAY????
WHAT IDIOCY!
No thanks.
If you find that everyone is against you... perhaps it's time to ask if it's them, or if it's you.
First, the thread that was posted is one full of slant and anti-Catholic whoppers (even if there is some truth to it). It's puts the Catholics in a position of first defeating the whoppers, then actually talking about the doctrines. Not worth the time for most of us.
Second, nobody "hijacked" the thread. It was never a discussion to begin with - only self-congratulation amongst the Protestants, and the complaints of the few Catholics who felt like confronting it tonight.
Third, theology and civil discourse is scarce here. From both sides.
Who behaved badly on this thread is of little concern to me; the trend goes well beyond this thread.
You mean like Catholics calling us scum? And bigots? [...] Then you need to take that up with the Catholics on FR. They're the ones calling us anti-Catholic and bigot, etc. We don't call ourselves that.
I know you don't call yourselves that... and it's not a charge that ought be leveled on all of you. But I'm certainly going to agree that it deserves to be leveled against some of you. Enough Catholics here have seen anti-Catholic bigotry (in Real life, not just on FR) to recognize it and call it for what it is. If you want to talk about it more, PM me.
Could you be more specific about what you consider slander in the article?
Slander is the wrong word. The accusations that Ryle and Latimer make against the Catholic Church are half-truths. They point out what may well have been legitimate abuses (uneducated priests, lack of preaching, corruption in the Vatican, etc.); However, they also paint things inherent to the Catholic system such as the Mass, the priesthood, penance and the other Sacraments, the veneration of relics, and other things that are inherent to the Apostolic Faith (the Orthodox do them too) as part of that corrupt system. Indeed these things are not part of the corrupt system, as they are part of the Catholic Faith received from the Apostles.
In addition to this is the idea that the Bible in Vernacular was somehow contrary to Catholicism - indeed, it was only prohibited to produce a translation without the approval of the Church, not for there to be an English translation of Scripture. In fact, the Church even took no issue with Wyclyffe's translation, provided that the Catholics who owned copies of it removed his heretical commentaries. I'll just leave this here for anyone interested in reading more.
No, I will not defend it beyond that, because EACH of those things would require a whole thread to be intelligently discussed. Besides this, each HAS ALREADY BEEN defended by Catholics on FR, ad nauseam. My doing so again will do no good.
It's already Sunday morning where I am. I don't have time to discuss it any more.
You deserve more of a response than the snarky one I just gave you. More to follow in a moment.
Abuses. There were lots of them in the Middle Ages. The People of God deserved better, and the Catholic Church fouled it up bad. But there are also lots of other things that Ryle and Latimer rejected as errors and excess (Mass, priesthood, veneration of relics, Penance) that at their heart are part of the Catholic Faith. Perhaps someday these can be discussed charitably. This thread, however, is irreparably poisoned by both sides.
A "catch all" discussion about all of the things that the Reformers complained about concerning the Catholic Church isn't going to be productive. And lots of the Catholics here have decided they want no parts of it. Frankly, maybe it's time for me to go off the RF for a while again too.
Your nice sounding appeal just has absolutely no congruence with the reality from the RC camp hereon lo these many years—none whatsoever.
Sooooooooo, dream on. . . just be sure to place the blame for lack of civil discourse where it solidly belongs—on the shoulders of FR’s ever present ever relentless Rabid Clique types.
I've been here five years... long enough to know that NEITHER side can take the moral high ground against the other... so there's no point in lecturing me on the sins of the "Rabid Clique" types. If we want to go and hold grudges, there's plenty of blame to go around, present company included.
I've also been here long enough to know when a thread has gone beyond the point of bearing good fruit.
And this one has long surpassed that point.
A Blessed Sunday to you and yours.
Thanks for this post.
And thanks for this post, also.
You have expressed my own sentiments about this thread.
If the article is so full of slants and lies, then why not start with your favorite few and speak about why they are untrue. I know I would be more than happy to engage with you as would the poster who put it up. Nobody even tried and the nastiness started almost immediately. Tell me why we have Catholic threads that consistently trash the "Protestant" differences? Are not Catholics just as worthy of criticism?
Second, nobody "hijacked" the thread. It was never a discussion to begin with - only self-congratulation amongst the Protestants, and the complaints of the few Catholics who felt like confronting it tonight.
Well, the most virulent initial posts have been deleted by the Moderator so you cannot see them now. Believe me, they started nasty and went up from there. There was no interest in disputing any facts from the article, only Molotov cocktails thrown in every response. How can you then expect a respectful dialog?
Third, theology and civil discourse is scarce here. From both sides.
It is scarce only on those threads that get sidetracked into flame throwing. I have even seen some of them go for thousands of posts with only a few dishonest or hateful comments. People who are interested in apologetics seem to manage just fine with others who oppose as long as respect is mutual. There are many Roman Catholics on this site with whom I have a loving and congenial relationship. We exchange prayer requests, blessings and disappointments. I am convinced that there are very few Freepers who have no point to share other than in flame-baiting, but ignored, they usually slink away.
I absolutely love the opportunity I have here on Free Republic to "talk" to people from all walks of life and I am grateful we have such a forum to do so. I would hate for the few "ingrates" to spoil it for the rest of us and, if we let them, we have only ourselves to blame.
“How about I ask pretty please? Post them here, along with your church’s website. Let’s see what you believe is Christianity, if you would.”
How about you do you own homework?
My church? I belong to Jesus Christ. I am a Christian. I am part of the Bride of Christ. Biblically, not popishly.
As you can guess, I’m protestant. What more could you want?!
:)
Hoss
One can clearly see what the author is saying in the scriptures themselves.. There is no priesthood in the new church. Greek is very clear on that
. There is a word for priest in greek and it is NEVER USED FOR THE NEW CHURCH. That word is "hiereus", the greek word for elder is presbyteros'''. The defination for elder is a term of rank or office a) among the Jews
1) members of the great council or Sanhedrin (because in early times the rulers of the people, judges, etc., were selected from elderly men
)
2) of those who in separate cities managed public affairs and administered justice
b) among the Christians, those who presided over the assemblies (or churches) The NT uses the term bishop, elders, and presbyters interchangeably
c) the twenty four members of the heavenly Sanhedrin or court seated on thrones around the throne of God
Elders is a leadership role, not a roll of sacrificer .
You see the scriptural division in passages like this
Mark 15;1And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole council, and bound Jesus, and carried him away, and delivered him to Pilate.
Young's Literal Greek Translation ... Acts 4:5 And it came to pass upon the morrow, there were gathered together of them the rulers, and elders, and scribes, to Jerusalem,
Even the Douay-Rheims Bible does not translate that as priests..
Acts 4:5 And it came to pass on the morrow, that their princes, and ancients, and scribes, were gathered together in Jerusalem;
A poor translation from the greek, but non the less even they did not translate it as priest.
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross is the final sacrifice.. not a model for the mass :)
I wouldn't expect it to since the Catholics are the ones piling on the nastiness.
If it's little concern, why are you chastising the non-Catholics then.
Your actions say otherwise.
Slander is the wrong word. The accusations that Ryle and Latimer make against the Catholic Church are half-truths.
Were any of the FRoman Catholics there to verify what the say happened in the day in which Latimer was living? He was there. On what basis do you know that he was lying? You must have some documentation to back yourself up.
Ryle was much closer to the situation in time as well.
Can you tell me the observable difference between veneration and worship?
If I am observing you praying how will I see the difference?
:)
>>How about the Church that wrote (the NT), preserved and canonized the Bible?<<
And then went totally off kilter with a sinless Mary, the bodily assumption of Mary, the idea that Peter was the first Pope, the veneration of relics etc.
I trust that God has kept for us the original inspired writings. The original gatherings of what the apostles called the church has little resemblance to what the RCC has become today. One needs to watch as churches stray from the original as most organized churches of today have.
Unfortunately no ...there are real questions to be asked, real history to be addressed.. and all the Catholics can do is mock and insult individuals .. This is a matter of the salvation of men.. and rather than look for the truth they wallow in ignorance..
And likewise, I've had enough Catholics in real life tell me that I'm wrong for following Bible teachings and that I'm going to go to hell for it, both in real life and on FR.
It doesn't bother me in the least. My salvation is not based on church affiliation and I know that, but I don't expect most Catholics to know, or admit that. I was raised Catholic in an extended Catholic family, which included priests and a nun, grew up with Catholic classmates, worked with Catholic co-workers.
Catholics do not make any secret of what they really believe so I know what on the ground, grassroots lay Catholics think and believe about their faith. Sometimes it's different from actual CCC teaching. Often it's not.
Christian does not by default mean Catholic. Catholic does not by default mean Christian. They are not synonymous.
There are Christians in all denominations and Christians who belong to none. There are non-Christians in all denominations.
What God desires is a relationship with Him, not an adherence to a laundry list of legalistic do's and don't's - of which the Catholic church is not the only guilty party in that respect by any means. Any church that says that membership in it or following THEIR own rules and regs is what gets you into heaven is just as bad, and I've attended Baptist churches that can give the best of the Pharisees a run for their money as far as legalism is concerned.
FWIW, even Pentecostals have their own brand of legalism. They just don't recognize it or admit it.
The NT was written by the NT church and recognized long before the Roman Catholic church existed..
If the Catholic church was responsible for the bible..they did a terrible job putting their doctrine in it.. there is no pope, no priesthood,no confession,no mass, no indulgences, no assumption, no prayers to saints or Mary, no relics, no celibacy and most of all it teaches clearly salvation by faith alone..
The Roman Catholic church bears no resemblance to the NT church.. not one wit
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