The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[MarkBsnr]

Predestination was the accepted position of the early church. It was simply assumed that God's providence ruled the world, as Scripture tells us.

You really don't know, do you? Until Calvin, nobody in the world thought that God predestined men to hell.

The belief wasn't challenged until the rise of gnosticism in the fourth and fifth centuries when Pelagianism seeped into the church. To combat that error, Augustine articulated a sound defense of God's predestination in his "Treatise of the Predestination of the Saints."

You really don't know, do you? Gnosticism predates Christianity and was brought into it almost immediately until it was declared heretical.

Your quotes do not show predestination to hell. We acknowledge predestination of the saints (or individuals anyway) to heaven. We do not acknowledge predestination of individuals to hell. And Thomas Aquinas does not offer an argument for it.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You really don't know, do you?

lol. Mark, you write with great authority.

And it's all your own.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragement, dear sister in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There are always going to be men who disagree with God's ordination of all things, including men's salvation.

In this case, I'll agree with the Roman Catholic bible. You're free to differ.

Oh, maybe not.

[daniel1212]

Fundamentalist could be understood as a sub class of Evangelicals, but the former are the latte , and generally the term is either for self-described evangelicals or according to a basic doctrinal criteria, just like but “born again” are, but with distinguishable aspects.

There are other surveys which distinguish specific btwn Prot denoms, and manifests a consistent contrast between evangelicals ones and others. See the whole collection: http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4

[daniel1212]

The church is not constituted to rule over the lost world, and the sword of men is sanction for the civil authorities whose domain that is:

“Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.” (John 18:36)

“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)” (2 Corinthians 10:3-4)

” By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,” (2 Corinthians 6:6-7)

“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Ephesians 6:12)

“For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.” (1 Corinthians 5:12-13)

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.” (Romans 13:3-4)

Contra:
Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): “[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.” Section V, Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

http://biblelight.net/freedom.htm (site ref for this, not all)

http://books.google.com/books?id=TnqLow3iKd4C&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=Innocent+III%E2%80%99s+Cum+ex+officii+nostri&source=bl&ots=zyZVwp5lz_&sig=LeZ5uuKjTNvNSkngUJNH_P51FZ4&hl=en&ei=KBZKTeLsE8nZgAfBqOTWDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

[daniel1212]

50 feet? Were i live (18k per sq mile) that could be a lot of space, which we need to put the snow.

I nee only just briefly address 2 things

As re the sedevacantists holding with Church teaching on Scripture but the succession of the Popes, they actually think the chair has been empty since either the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958 or Pope John XXIII in 1963, due to the embrace of Modernism, or of having otherwise denied or contradicted solemnly defined (as they see them) Catholic dogmas

As re SS type, it means sola (not solo) scriptura.

Good weather sites:
http://www.wunderground.com/radar/mixedcomposite.asp?region=a5&size=2x&type=loop&MR=1

http://www.wunderground.com/US/Region/US/2xpxJetStream.html?MR=1 (that’s the issue)

http://www.intellicast.com/National/Radar/Current.aspx?animate=true

http://www.accuweather.com/video/774044729001/is-a-record-cold-sat-era-globa.asp?channel=vbbastaj (that’s the anti AGW man)

[count-your-change]

What effect(if any) the religious background of the President (and his staff) has on foreign policy would make for an interesting debate since it seems you’ve given a good deal of thought to the subject.
I simply don’t have much to contribute that would be of any value and thus I’ll have to step back.

“It is pertinent to my point.”

I understand it is but you can understand why I don’t want to comment on areas a way beyond my knowledge.

Cheers, it was a pleasure jousting with you! We really must again soon.

[Alamo-Girl]

Faith is belief, not knowledge. Even while arguing with me, you post on faith. Paul writes extensively on faith, belief, hope. If you know something, there is no hope, there is surety. You are using the term 'know' here to indicate fervent belief. Okay, be that as it may. When we debate, I will not accept that.

It’s a pity that you evidently have already accepted the existence of a wall between “belief” and “knowledge.”

Not everyone gets a “Road to Damascus” experience

And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? – Acts 9:3-4

or receives physical evidence

Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. – John 20:27

but every Christian receives from God Himself the Spiritual knowledge of Who Christ IS. And that Spiritual knowledge comes neither by sensory perception nor reasoning.

The knowledge of Who Christ IS comes directly from God. It is a Spiritual revelation.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15-18

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

And we Christians receive Spiritual discernment in our walk. Spiritual discernment is neither sensory perception nor reasoning.

Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. - I Cor 2:6-16

Without Spiritual discernment, the Scriptures are dead letters, no different than any other ancient manuscript.

With Spiritual discernment, the Scriptures come alive within us.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

So you see, not only is Spiritual revelation/discernment knowledge – it is the most certain knowledge of all for me, far above sensory perception and reasoning.

If all of my reasoning and sensory perception is telling me to run but God is telling me to stay, I will stay.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

So obviously we have no common ground between us to discuss this further. It’s been interesting, though, and a great opportunity to testify. Thank you!

God’s Name is I AM

[Quix]

Thanks for all your wonderful posts.

[boatbums]

Hey, Cronos, please just leave me off your ping list to your posts attempting to sow discord among the brethren. Quix was right, that IS what you're trying to accomplish, correct? It won't work so give it up. We are not as stupid as you seem to think.

[boatbums]

I could be wrong, but weren't you told to leave the thread way back in post #786? Did you get a reprieve, or did you forget, or do you not care?

[Religion Moderator]

A different poster was instructed to leave at 786.

[boatbums]

You were wrong all this time. The best that could be said is that some of the verses agree with an already established Trinity.

OMG! Some of the verses "agree" with an already established Trinity??? Do you mean that the Jews already believed in a triune God as implied in the OT and the NT writers confirmed it in their writings? Or, are you saying that your "church" had already made dogmatic statements concerning the Trinity and good, old Paul accommodated y'all and put it all down in his epistles?

I can only imagine how much your seeming refusal to admit you might be wrong about something from time to time would seriously irritate your wife. It sure would me.

[boatbums]

Sooooo.... the Roman Catholic Church ‘wrote’ tbe Bible??? It ‘owns” it, as it is a “[Roman} Catholic document”???

Where’s the copyright notice for it?

Ssssnap!!! Good point, Hoss.

[boatbums]

I don't think Jews have a concept of hell that is in any way comparable to the Christian concept of it. Who's to "preside" there given that Jews don't believe in the devil?

Are you thinking about present day Jews? I believe the Jews of the OT certainly knew about the devil. They had the book of Job, right? Just who do you think it was talking about?

[boatbums]

AMEN!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your encouragement, dear sister in Christ!

[boatbums]

Proverbs 6:12-14

A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.