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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: caww

And the proof is certainly in the pudding — if you wander by anyCatholic Church in India or China or East Africa or even in Europe, the liveliness and youth and energy and love of God is amazing. The Holy Spirit seeks to remind us that these priests or pastors are just tools, the focus is God.


1,221 posted on 01/19/2011 9:21:17 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Cronos

What would you accept as proof?

Define *moderation*.

Keep reading.

Let me know when you’ve caught up.


1,222 posted on 01/19/2011 9:21:19 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos
the pastor, acting in persona Christi

We don't need anyone to stand in for Christ Cronos, we can go directly to Him for forgiveness...and only He has that authority just as He has said....and further when we go to Him we are a sinner before Him with our sin to confess to Him that that is what it is...sin. Additionally Jesus never uses a "formula" to forgive us...He has promised to forgive and we believe Him that He will and does as we come before Him. Jesus Himself is our stead...He needs no other.. nor do most who know Him desire another. He is sufficient of Himself in every and all ways. That Cronos...is relationship with Christ.

1,223 posted on 01/19/2011 9:23:05 PM PST by caww
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To: topcat54; metmom
Is that in the Bible, or did you read it on a fortune cookie or something?

Sadly for many, they can't make out the difference. I've never understood people using the Bible to force through Abolition -- the Bible keeps repeating drinking in moderation. And, I've noticed in societies that are a bit coy about drinking at home (yes, the Brits included), there are more drunks. Compare this with the mediterranean where even children can have a sip or two and this is apparent. In societies that do not drink (like Islamic ones), their vices are in other, worse directions, like chewing Qat in Yemen or worse.
1,224 posted on 01/19/2011 9:24:58 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Cronos

“Any proof for either statement?”

Yes. Post 1063. That’s where I said it.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=1063#1063


1,225 posted on 01/19/2011 9:26:01 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom

Of course, met, the fact is that someone who left the Church in the 60s or 70s is completely out of touch with the Catholic Church of today.


1,226 posted on 01/19/2011 9:26:18 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: topcat54; metmom; boatbums
Sure, but stretching the truth? I still do not understand how, in your world, drinking and smoking get written up alongside adultery and sodomy as great sins of Roman Catholicism. Why not add j-walking?

Stretching the truth is the irritating bit. One can debate with ex-Catholics such as yourself or boat who will bring up a particular topic because they seriously wish to explain or show people the light (badly putting it, but you know, they care). If anyone stretches the truch or uses slurs etc., they are not aiming to convert but to score a target for their hatred.
1,227 posted on 01/19/2011 9:29:11 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Cronos
could you honestly say that about all the priests?

Without question....they are not taking a unified stand. if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool

Well I can assure you Christ isn't looking beyond their sin...come on Cronos..call it what it is...a great sin against God. And God is trying to get your people to move on filth in your church....they didn't and so now the world knows and still they are worse than slow to act sufficiently.

the Church is tightening control over regional bishopsx

Now isn't that like asking the fox to guard the hen house? The church from top to bottom IS the problem. From Rome who moved these Pastors about...to parents who thought more of their Priests than their own children. From top to bottom the house needs to be cleaned out.

1,228 posted on 01/19/2011 9:37:26 PM PST by caww
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To: metmom

That’s not proof, that’s hearsay.


1,229 posted on 01/19/2011 9:41:32 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: caww
Hey, I posted that as Lutherans have Holy Absolution which is done privately to the pastor (commonly only upon request). Here the person confessing (known as the "penitent") confesses individual their sins and makes an act of contrition as the pastor, acting in persona Christi, announces this following formula of absolution (or similar): "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

This is to a Protestant pastor. Yes, there are differences between Orthodox/Catholic/Oriental confession and Anglican confession and Lutheran Holy Absolution, but the specific point on which you said about "We do not confess to our Pastors" is incorrect considering Protestant pastors as a whole.
1,230 posted on 01/19/2011 9:48:37 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: topcat54
I'm accountable for myself. .....If you don't care to say, just say you don't care to say. It was a legitimate question. You're free to answer or not.

Why is your question legitimate to you but my answer isn't legitimate? And I did answer it and you posted my answer. If my answer isn't good enough for you that suits me fine.

I Peter 4:15 "But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters."

I'm curious as to why you would get involved then in a discussion that started off with the premise...

What makes your curious? What is it that you want to know? Are you scrutinizing? Do you always evaluate why a poster responds to what statement or question - mind reading? Like what's up with them? Where do they fit?

Don't make me the topic of this thread. And while I'm here, I can and will respond to whatever I want. If it leaves you more dizzy that's fine with me, also. It reminds me of busybody neighbor peeking over the fence, 'what's he up to'? I Peter 4:15
1,231 posted on 01/19/2011 9:49:01 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: caww
"Without question....they are not taking a unified stand" --> actually, you are wrong. They are and there are many good priests who do speak out -- I would suggest you do drop in any nearby Catholic parishes and see the number of good priests

And of course Christ is looking at the sins of the priests and bishops and pastors -- these pastors are held to a higher standard, that is why in Dante's Inferno, the path to hell is lined with the skulls of bishops. If a shepherd does not adequately shepherd his flock, he will be judged very severely.

The job of the flock is to follow The Good shepherd, Christ, to focus on Him, not on the sub-shepherds who have not one level of the ability of The Shepherd. Yet, the sheep are not to huddle away and form their own flocks with their own leaders because those sheep without shepherds are prone to wolves (from J Smith to Ellen G White to the Taize movement etc).

The focus is to be always on The Shepherd, not on the sub-shepherds/pastors.
1,232 posted on 01/19/2011 9:53:16 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Cronos; caww; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; count-your-change; ...

Cronos: “Actually, we are not — because if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool and focus on God.”

That is so wrong on so many levels. First off, provide Scripture to back that up.

Then, if we are expected to live the Beatitudes, and are held to that standard of behavior to make it in to heaven, why is the Catholic clergy given a pass? Why does the Catholic church demand more from the laity than its own clergy?

Scripture holds those who are ministers and shepherds to higher standards. They are more accountable. It comes with the territory and doesn’t matter how many other people do what how often. Broad is the path that leads to destruction. Since when was crowd following an option for Catholic priests?

If every teacher on the planet molested children, there STILL should be NO priests doing it. It’s not a matter of, *Well, not as many of us (catholic priests) do it as _________, so it’s really not so bad.*

Yes it is. It should be an outrage if even only ONE priest did it.

If you disagree with that, your argument is with God. Paul was hard enough on Christians who were not in positions of leadership in regard to sexual immorality. I can’t believe that he’d give those who called themselves ministers a pass, because after all, nobody is perfect and boys will be boys..

1 Corinthians 5

1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father’s wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.

3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”

******************************************************************************

1 Corinthians 6: 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

*****************************************************************************

1 Timothy 3

1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.

8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

*************************************************************************

Titus 1 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you— 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7For an overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.

10For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.


1,233 posted on 01/19/2011 9:54:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: caww
Actually, no -- the problem was that Rome up until JPII's last years was still too many fiefdoms and not enough pastoral control. You see the same problem now in Germany. However, since JPII's time he has been slowly replacing the bishops in the US (as they retire or get chucked out) with conservative ones -- that's why we have the guys who refuse communion to apostate cino politicians, that's why we have the bishop in Australia who said cino politicians who support abortion should stop saying they are good Catholics etc.

Remember, the focus to be on God, JEsus Christ,not on the pastor
1,234 posted on 01/19/2011 9:56:02 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: metmom; topcat54
Define *moderation*

What is your solution, then, met? Ban drinking completely? No alcohol to be available anywhere?
1,235 posted on 01/19/2011 9:56:59 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: caww
Here is a very good article on Confession among Lutherans
1,236 posted on 01/19/2011 10:00:55 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: metmom; caww
Firstly, I'm having a sane conversation with caww

Secondly, refer to point 1
1,237 posted on 01/19/2011 10:02:01 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: metmom
So, what is the percentage of conviction rate of pastors in your group who have molested children?

What about your pastors who drink, smoke, commit adultery, are homosexual, and/or molest children? Have they been hounded out and what proof is there that they have?
1,238 posted on 01/19/2011 10:04:13 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: metmom

“Purge the evil person from among you.”

Rather to the point, eh?

As you say, those in a position of leadership bear a heavier responsibility and those who would represent God all the more so. Complaining that others are just as bad just won’t do, not at all.


1,239 posted on 01/19/2011 10:08:36 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: metmom; Cronos; caww
You know, if those qualifications were good enough for the first century Christian leaders, then they sure better be for those today! What utter inanity to suggest that we should “look beyond the faulty human tool”! God sure didn't expect them to back then and any person, leader or parishioner, who violated the standards we have been given by God should find themselves cast out of the fellowship until real, true repentance was demonstrated. Even then, for one who was in a leadership position, they should not just be given back that position, if ever!
1,240 posted on 01/19/2011 10:09:34 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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