Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54
Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicles occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.
(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...
And the proof is certainly in the pudding — if you wander by anyCatholic Church in India or China or East Africa or even in Europe, the liveliness and youth and energy and love of God is amazing. The Holy Spirit seeks to remind us that these priests or pastors are just tools, the focus is God.
What would you accept as proof?
Define *moderation*.
Keep reading.
Let me know when you’ve caught up.
We don't need anyone to stand in for Christ Cronos, we can go directly to Him for forgiveness...and only He has that authority just as He has said....and further when we go to Him we are a sinner before Him with our sin to confess to Him that that is what it is...sin. Additionally Jesus never uses a "formula" to forgive us...He has promised to forgive and we believe Him that He will and does as we come before Him. Jesus Himself is our stead...He needs no other.. nor do most who know Him desire another. He is sufficient of Himself in every and all ways. That Cronos...is relationship with Christ.
“Any proof for either statement?”
Yes. Post 1063. That’s where I said it.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2657209/posts?page=1063#1063
Of course, met, the fact is that someone who left the Church in the 60s or 70s is completely out of touch with the Catholic Church of today.
Without question....they are not taking a unified stand. if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool
Well I can assure you Christ isn't looking beyond their sin...come on Cronos..call it what it is...a great sin against God. And God is trying to get your people to move on filth in your church....they didn't and so now the world knows and still they are worse than slow to act sufficiently.
the Church is tightening control over regional bishopsx
Now isn't that like asking the fox to guard the hen house? The church from top to bottom IS the problem. From Rome who moved these Pastors about...to parents who thought more of their Priests than their own children. From top to bottom the house needs to be cleaned out.
That’s not proof, that’s hearsay.
Cronos: “Actually, we are not — because if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool and focus on God.”
That is so wrong on so many levels. First off, provide Scripture to back that up.
Then, if we are expected to live the Beatitudes, and are held to that standard of behavior to make it in to heaven, why is the Catholic clergy given a pass? Why does the Catholic church demand more from the laity than its own clergy?
Scripture holds those who are ministers and shepherds to higher standards. They are more accountable. It comes with the territory and doesn’t matter how many other people do what how often. Broad is the path that leads to destruction. Since when was crowd following an option for Catholic priests?
If every teacher on the planet molested children, there STILL should be NO priests doing it. It’s not a matter of, *Well, not as many of us (catholic priests) do it as _________, so it’s really not so bad.*
Yes it is. It should be an outrage if even only ONE priest did it.
If you disagree with that, your argument is with God. Paul was hard enough on Christians who were not in positions of leadership in regard to sexual immorality. I can’t believe that he’d give those who called themselves ministers a pass, because after all, nobody is perfect and boys will be boys..
1 Corinthians 5
1It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his fathers wife. 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you.
3For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. 4When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people 10 not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindlernot even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? 13God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
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1 Corinthians 6: 12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be enslaved by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two will become one flesh.” 17But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. 19Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
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1 Timothy 3
1The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task. 2Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, 5for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for Gods church? 6He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover, he must be well thought of by outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, into a snare of the devil.
8 Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain. 9They must hold the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. 10And let them also be tested first; then let them serve as deacons if they prove themselves blameless. 11 Their wives likewise must be dignified, not slanderers, but sober-minded, faithful in all things. 12Let deacons each be the husband of one wife, managing their children and their own households well. 13For those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.
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Titus 1 5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7For an overseer, as Gods steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
10For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
“Purge the evil person from among you.”
Rather to the point, eh?
As you say, those in a position of leadership bear a heavier responsibility and those who would represent God all the more so. Complaining that others are just as bad just won’t do, not at all.
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