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The Not So Secret Rapture
reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

Posted on 01/14/2011 5:57:52 PM PST by topcat54

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

(Excerpt) Read more at reformed.org ...


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: crusades; endtimes; eschatology; rapture
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To: Quix
The facts remain that for the vast majority of the population, smoking = dancing with a high probability of a very long and painful dying process.

Who writes your material? It's a gas. Reminds me of the one about why baptists don't have … oh, nevermind.


1,201 posted on 01/19/2011 8:10:49 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- an error of Biblical proportions.")
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To: topcat54; metmom

The way God obviously defines Israel in virtually every relevant verse Old and New Testaments—the blood children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


1,202 posted on 01/19/2011 8:11:30 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: topcat54; boatbums; presently no screen name
How is abstinence in a thing that is adiaphora a better example than moderation? The Bible certainly doesn't support this view. Certainly being able to enjoy a thing within limits shows greater self control (fruit of the Spirit) than absolute abstinence.

Try again....

1 Corinthians 9 19For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. 21To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 23I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.

Romans 14 1As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

?> 10Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11for it is written,

"As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." 12So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13 Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, but rather decide never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of a brother. 14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean. 15For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died.

16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. 23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

1,203 posted on 01/19/2011 8:14:05 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: boatbums

I know you weren’t. It happens all the time anyway. I found that as long as I don’t let myself get too hungry, it’s not really a problem.

If, for some reason, I get really hungry, a hard workout shoveling the snow or missing a meal for some reason, being around food is a REAL struggle.

Thanks for the prayers.


1,204 posted on 01/19/2011 8:17:24 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: presently no screen name; boatbums

Funny thing is, if a Protestant smokes or drinks a Catholic’s first reaction is *What kind of Christian are you?!?!*

There seems to be this unwritten code of conduct that smoking and drinking is incompatible with a good Christian testimony and everyone knows it.

I don’t have a problem with an occasional glass of wine for someone but if I suspect that people will be judging my Christianity based on whether I partake or not, I won’t.

I do not want to give them cause to stumble or question my commitment.

Now, if I have that figured out, any clergy of any denomination ought to have that one figured out.

What I’ve noticed is that there are precious few Evangelicals or Protestants who smoke, for the simple reason that they consider their body the temple of the Holy Spirit and feel an obligation to care for it. Not to mention being a good ambassador for Christ.


1,205 posted on 01/19/2011 8:24:43 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: topcat54
It is a rare thing today that I hear Christians willing to give up meat for their vegetarian brethren.

Perhaps you didn't understand the point. No one is saying we should place rules and laws over someone and basing their salvation on it. There are some today even that make abstaining from meat (on certain days or periods) a practice of their religion and count as sin anyone who does not follow it. They also restrict who can marry - imagine that.

That said, we have friends who ARE vegetarians and when we invite them to our home for a meal we only serve vegetarian foods. We show them respect this way. When we go out to eat with them, they are fine if we order meat in our meal. They show us respect in that as well. So this, I think is Paul's point. He can do without rather than offend someone. Would you still smoke around someone who didn't like smoke? Would it bother you to see your pastor drinking in a bar, coming out of an x-rated movie, chain-smoking? That was the real point anyway. I don't think very highly of grossly overweight preachers either. Their testimony should be important to them as it reflects their relationship with the Lord and those who look up to them.

1,206 posted on 01/19/2011 8:25:58 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: topcat54

How about you answer my question first. Of whom do you think Jer. 31,32 & 33 are speaking?


1,207 posted on 01/19/2011 8:30:17 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to him.)
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To: boatbums

In fact, if you want to see Inquisatorial, check out the difference between posts 1025 (me pointing out prominent Protestant shepherds of their flocks) and post 1032 (a “let’s ignore all the previous post/thread says so we can attack Christianity”).


1,208 posted on 01/19/2011 8:36:50 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: caww
"Of course their are good ministers within the body of Christ"

Yes, and their numbers outweigh the bad. EVen more so, if one looks over the course of 2000 years

....but we are speaking of those who are not -- because unlike many groups outside, we are not a man/individual driven group, we are only focused on God and God's Word. If the tool is fauly (and all tools are faulty), we look beyond it to God, Our Lord Jesus Christ

"why they remain so long" -- God knows, just as God gave bad kings to Judah and Israel, yet those who rebelled (the Northern tribes) were reduced to dross.
1,209 posted on 01/19/2011 8:41:22 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: topcat54; metmom
"adiaphora are not sins" -- good point tc.

Met -- does your group consider smoking and drinking to be sins?

I remember a poster once saying that Jesus Christ created grape juice at cana! (*Da ya go displaying your ignorance over the biblical use of the word “wine.” Justify your drunkeness via Jesus and the wedding! No, Jesus never drank strong drink and He didn’t create 150 gallons of rotten juice to throw a drunken party. Jesus Christ never created anything tainted, and fermented juice is tainted. *)

I also recall someone one telling me it was a sin to dance with anyone other than their spouse and they only dance in groups holding hands like in Fiddler-on-the-roof. This and other wild stuff like how she burnt the music of suspected gay composers like Mozart(!!)
1,210 posted on 01/19/2011 8:45:58 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: boatbums
Of course Jesus is the center of all Scripture. I don't deny it at all. Why then can you not see that God's promises to Israel of a Messiah were fulfilled in him yet there is still unfinished work that the Lord is to do. From Jeremiah 31 we read:

Perhaps it's only unfinished in the sense that there are more people, I believe many more people, that will come to Christ before He returns to judge the earth. That includes many more Jewish people.

“will Israel ever cease being a nation before me.”

What does that mean? E.g., how has Israel been a “nation” for the last 2000 years? Is it nation in terms of land or is it nation in terms of covenant or is it nation in terms of Jesus Christ the king? What does the prophecy mean (in relationship to Christ) and how do you know whether or not it's been fulfilled?

1,211 posted on 01/19/2011 8:46:42 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- an error of Biblical proportions.")
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To: Cronos
unlike many groups outside, we are not a man/individual driven group, we are only focused on God and God's Word

Oh but you are man/individual driven. Otherwise the homosexual issue among the very Priesthood would not have been sustained by the very men you are claiming are focused on God and His word. Both those who commited those acts and those who sheltered them. And still today they are all dragging their feet.

In my opinion...the laiety needs to take a huge stand.... stand against these Priests. Because those in leadership, who you claim to be focused on God, aren't even remotely close to God...rather an accessory to those crimes and totally man/individual focused, and are certainly doing little to combat this.

These Priests are not just faulty, as you say, they are mortal sinners in the hands of an angry God...and the leaderhip equally as such by failing to act on Gods behalf and comletely rid the church of these creeps. If I look over the course of years at your Priesthood...well the proof is in the pudding as we continue to see this day.

1,212 posted on 01/19/2011 9:01:45 PM PST by caww
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To: Religion Moderator; metmom
ok, so I can ask a poster if they believe in the Nicene Creed? As I said, I don't think that asking beliefs in a Religion Forum is personal information.

anyway, you've given a definite set of rules and I'll abide by it on not asking met which group she belongs to.
1,213 posted on 01/19/2011 9:03:30 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: caww
Hardly -- firstly, you got it wrong, Anglicans pastors too have confession and Lutherans have Holy Absolution which is done privately to the pastor (commonly only upon request). Here the person confessing (known as the "penitent") confesses individual their sins and makes an act of contrition as the pastor, acting in persona Christi, announces this following formula of absolution (or similar): "In the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The role of the pastor/priest is as minister of Christ's mercy

Israel will one day have their blindness removed and they will see Christ for who He really is to them

Yes, as I pointed out, Israel is the northern Tribes who rebelled against the line of kings and High Priests in Judah and set up their own kingdom which withered away. They are akin to the groups that broke away from the Church. Judah had bad kings, high priests, yet to break away just because one king was bad was to ignore that God was behind all and focus on the individual person (king or high priest) instead of God.
1,214 posted on 01/19/2011 9:07:23 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: metmom; topcat54
Met "And I’m not talking an occasional social drink, either. Ever been to a Catholic wedding?"

Firstly, you mean the wedding PARTY, not the wedding itself.

Secondly, I'm sorry but this shows a purely US-centric worldview. Have you ever been to Catholic wedding parties outside the US, in different cultures etc? In Irish and English wedding parties there is a lot of alcohol, but less in South-Indian wedding parties. It varies by culture, nationality and even individuals. In Poland, the Lutherans have parties that are just like Catholic ones because both are part of Polish culture. Culture plays a big role in the wedding PARTIES.
1,215 posted on 01/19/2011 9:10:46 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: Cronos

Like you did in post 1,210?


1,216 posted on 01/19/2011 9:11:28 PM PST by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Cronos
Yes, you can ask a poster if he believes the Nicene Creed.

And you can ask a poster which church he attends or which group he has joined. But if he does not answer or says he does not want to answer, then drop it.

1,217 posted on 01/19/2011 9:12:11 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: metmom; topcat54
metmom; What I said was that lay Catholics excuse their own smoking and drinking based on the priests participation of it. At the very least, they are setting a bad example.

Any proof for either statement? And do you think that smoking or drinking in moderation are wrong?
1,218 posted on 01/19/2011 9:12:19 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: topcat54
Perhaps, I didn't explain where I'm coming from good enough. It's not something I felt I should do but wanted to do. No one is telling me, nor did I feel condemned when I chose to do when I read that Scripture, it was something I 'wanted' to do. And not because it was wrong but I didn't see how it edified me. Like our relationship with Our Father, it's a personal thing. While meditating on His Word I renew my mind, whether it's from old ways or old thoughts.

It is a rare thing today that I hear Christians willing to give up meat for their vegetarian brethren

Or the vegetarian having a hamburger with me. However, I guess he could have a veggieburger.

Personally, anyone can eat, drink whatever - it's makes no difference to me and never has nor have I found it to be a stumbling block in my walk.
1,219 posted on 01/19/2011 9:14:43 PM PST by presently no screen name
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To: caww
Actually, we are not -- because if there is a bad priest etc. we are to look beyond the faulty human tool and focus on God.

On the homosexual issue, while those folks were heinous and should be hounded out or worse do note the % (2-3% in the US) and compare it to non-Catholic pastors and to secular professions like school teachers, etc which had similar or higher %

In my opinion...the laiety needs to take a huge stand.... stand against these Priests --> yes, I agree. And laity does play a big role today and the Church is tightening control over regional bishopsx

Because those in leadership, who you claim to be focused on God, aren't even remotely close to God -- could you honestly say that about all the priests? How many do you personally know, seriously? I know some rotters who are priests and yet they are in the minority. The numbers of good priests and diligent priests outweigh these bad ones enormously.

And it is the same among pastors in non-Catholic groups.
1,220 posted on 01/19/2011 9:18:59 PM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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