The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Cronos]

Bluntly, no, those two do not go hand in hand -- I'm a Catholic and believe in it, yet I'll respect a fellow Trinitarian in NOT, just as I expect the fellow Trinitarian to respect my beliefs as long as we acknowledge the basics (Nicene Creed).

We argue about it, but as long as he believes in the Trinity and Christ's divinity, that marks Quix as Christian.

Even for us Catholics, the core beliefs are on Christ's divinity -- if you are to help a dying man, you teach him to call on Christ as His Lord and God. The rest is not critical to his salvation -- and this is not just me saying this, but it is Church teaching on what are the utter fundamentals of our faith and what other bits describe our faith. All the various aspect of mary only point out the power, glory and divinty of our Lord and all are JUST LIKE HER, pointing to Our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Quix acknowledges that Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior. He acknowledges that Jesus is 100% God and 100% Man. He believes in miracles happening today and the power of the Holy Spirit to work wonders. He believes in a loving, Christian God that wants us to come to Him yet gives us the choice to freely choose Him. All of these beliefs of Quix's by any factual definition means that he, Quix, is undeniably Christian and Trinitarian in belief

[Cronos]

which can be said about any temporal office including the POTUS

Do you understand "temporal"?

Do you understand analogy?

Knee-jerk anti-Christianity such as displayed in your posts are tiring to say the least.

[Cronos]

The Nicene Creed makes a handy filter. Anybody who can't affirm it beyond the pale, not to be looked to. To be prayed for but not with.

I agree. It's a very good filter. That's why I mostly want to make sure that both me and the other guy/lady believe in this before we get into a debate, or it's like two guys arguing about calculus and not agreeing that 1+1 = 2.

Also, it is kinda sad that a post that has nothing to do with Catholicism (the Church doesn't have any doctrine on the rapture) degenerated into the standard bash -- we have enough of those threads already! This started off as a very interesting post -- the first 5 posts or so, especially to one such as me who hasn't got any defined beliefs on this one way or the other, so reading the civil argument between TC and CB was very, very informative.

Ok, I'll ignore the met from now on on this thread, but I'm having a very interesting history chat with cyc :-P

[Cronos]

tc: “Bottom line here is that there is no reference to modern secular Israel in the Abrahamic blessing or in any other blessing – literally speaking.”
cinc: What part of “and to your descendants” is so hard to understand?

Tc And what part of the “father of many nations” don't you understand?
cinc: I never said I don’t understand that. We are “adopted” in. Abraham is also the father of all that came from Ishmael. That is not what “and to your descendants” is talking about. There are specific promises made to the ethnic children of Israel that don’t apply to the Ishmaelites or to the Gentiles.

Ephesians 2 --> whooa, that IS informative and clearly stating that all Christians are now part of the house of ISrael

[Cronos]

And they are — some Protestant shepherds like the reverend Graham and many of the Baptist missionaries who toil in the Middle East and AFrica are true shepherds.

[Quix]

Most of us have been guilty of

ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS thinking and acting on occasion.

And, in a war/prisoner of war, Corrie Ten Boom etc. situation, I can imagine lying to protect loved ones.

However, this rationalizing to the nth degree continually and centuries afterwards such outrageousness . . . all to protect a very human institution, . . . is nonsense.

God is certainly not going to ignore such forever.

[Quix]

INDEED.

I keep trying to figure out a way to get him the Popcorn concession but haven’t been able to work it out, yet.

[Quix]

IN-GROUP AND AUTHORTARIAN MENTALITIES

SEEM TO MARRY EACH OTHER PERSISTENTLY.

[metmom]

That's pretty high standards for non-Catholics.

What about Catholic priests who drink, smoke, commit adultery, are homosexual, and/or molest children?

Do you apply the same standards to them as well?

[topcat54]

BTW, the word “adopted” or “adoption” is never used of gentiles to describe their relationship to Abraham or the covenant community. There is no characteristic like this that distinguishes between former Jews and former gentiles in the kingdom of God.

[metmom]

Getting a courtesy ping out of Catholics when talking about non-Catholics is like pulling teeth....

Sheesh.

[Cronos]

What about your pastors who drink, smoke, commit adultery, are homosexual, and/or molest children?

Give us the stats to show that your group has NEVER had any pastors or elders or prophets or others who have ever done any of those acts you mentioned? Do you have any such statistics?

[caww]

so if we have a bonehead priest or bishop or pope, that's irrelevant, what is relevant is Christ Himself.

But it is relevant in every way...if those who appoint him cannot or will not un-appoint or replace him, then overtime yes indeed it is time to move on. That's not church jumping, that's simply being wise and careful to distinguish when it is time to do so.

we consider The Church to be akin to the royal priesthood of Israel, the native Israelites did not change their Israeliism because of a bad king or high priest.

But Christ did indeed CHANGE the whole equation of the Priesthood. As the body of believers in Christ we do not fashion ourselves as Israel, for we are not Israel. We are under the new covenant. So that ends that discussion. I see no comparrison there... thus no need for the Priesthood as Christ is our Priest entire and alone Him.

IMO the Priesthood of the catholic church is three quarters of the problem. Without them the laity might have opportunity to establish a better relationship with Christ instead of going thru all the hoops and loops the Priest require the laity jump thru. But of course they get their orders from Rome....one hand does feed the other.

[Cronos]

Does your group even acknowledge the Trinitarian nature of the Rev Graham's teachings? you must realise that to us Christians, Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior, part of the Triune God. the Rev Graham has affirmed this and he's a saintly man.

Or do you think he isn't?

[metmom]

That’s not the point.

The question was whether you held Catholic clergy to the same standards as you seem to hold non-Catholic clergy.

Try to focus and stay on topic.

[Cronos]

Getting a courtesy ping out of Catholics when talking about non-Catholics is like pulling teeth.

interesting -- do you think that Lee is a Catholic?

[Cronos]

1. Not really -- bishops etc. are replaced.

2. Christ changed the equation of Priesthood. He took the analogy of the OT where all of the Israelites were part of the Royal Priesthood. Now Christians are all party of the royal priesthood. Yet, the Israelites had ministerial priests too -- as do us Christians today. Christ's unique role as Man and God remains and is not blemished by the sub-shepherds/pastors/priests.

3. We DO fashion ourselves as the old testament -- the OT predicts the NT, right from baptism to the royal priesthood of Christians. We are part of the New Covenant, yet remember that Christ came to FULFILL the Old Covenant, not destroy it. He did not come to replace Israel with Christians but to make Gentiles part of the house of Israel (as TopCat has illustrated above)



If I take the example that we consider The Church to be akin to the royal priesthood of Israel, the native Israelites did not change their Israeliism because of a bad king or high priest. Those that did, ended badly (the Northern tribes). Rather the truth is to stay and let God lead.

[Cronos]

Very interesting, I had pointed out to topcat54 and caww (not you btw) that And they are — some Protestant shepherds like the reverend Graham and many of the Baptist missionaries who toil in the Middle East and AFrica are true shepherds.

And you jumped the topic, so now I ask you What about your pastors who drink, smoke, commit adultery, are homosexual, and/or molest children?

Give us the stats to show that your group has NEVER had any pastors or elders or prophets or others who have ever done any of those acts you mentioned? Do you have any such statistics?

[Cronos]

And does your group even acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, God and Savior?

[topcat54]

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh … (Eph. 2:11)

The import of this statement by Paul in that day cannot be underestimated. Paul was speaking of these converts as “former gentiles.” It’s common today among folks who continue to foster ethnic and racial division within Christ’s body to refer to believers as “gentile Christians” or “Hebrew Christians.” Some of the more hardcore even go so far as to claim that the very name “Christian” is really a gentile invention, to be used only of “gentiles,” and that Christianity is somehow a purely gentile religion.

Nonsense. Those suggestions are patently false. We are no longer “gentiles in the flesh” or even “Israel after the flesh” (cf. 1 Cor. 10:18). We are one body, one flesh, under one Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ.

We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, the true dwelling place of God. We should no longer be content referring to one another with racial labels. It breeds division, something the apostle Paul fought long and hard against.