Mormon and Christian

Many many Christians do not get the distinction between ‘worship’ and ‘adore’. I’m not a Catholic yet I have studied Mary enough that I adore her for her grace. I would never worship Mary ... and she would advise against such blasphemy. But many will not catch that distinction.

You might like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I think it’s a shame Mary has become an issue, in many ways she is the model Christian for the way she responded to God’s grace.

Only one more reply to you...

Catholics pray to dead people, including Mary—that’s a fact. Mary, and the other dead in Christ are asleep until the end when the dead in Christ will rise, and they couldn’t answer prayers even if they weren’t currently asleep. Worshiping or adoring—praying to someone is quite worshipful. Praying to someone other than God is misguided at best and idolatry at worst.

I’m done with this fruitless conversation. You go ahead and have all the last words you like.

Sshh..... don’t tell the theif on the cross he is still dead. read mark 12:27 to see whether God is God to the living or the dead. Members of the Body of Christ can come boldly to the throne of grace, whether on earth or in heaven. Praying is talking to someone, nothing worshipful about it.

Thank you for the ping. Everytime I watch that it takes several tissues to get all the ay through it. Even the most fleeting glimpse into the divine bursts the human heart with joy. ... You have feepmail.

sshh.....don’t tell the saints in Revelation 6:10 they are still dead!
don’t tell Abraham in Luke 16:24 he is dead!

K?

LDS attempts to co-opt and append a dead persons life so as to add them to the rolls of LDS through Baptism for the Dead.

Their agency has left them once they are dead and in restful sleep or whatever they do on the other side.

A persons expressed desire and action are requirements of salvation and no one can act as their proxy to obtain God’s grace.

That is analogous to your correct assertion of those being dead in Christ cannot answer prayer.

Yes, indeed. There’s truly a lot of wacky “doctrine” out there.

LDS attempts to co-opt and append a dead persons life so as to add them to the rolls of LDS through Baptism for the Dead.

To my knowledge, the dead are not added to the rolls of the earthly church. If you are referring to the dead being baptized and confirmed into the mormon church by proxy, then that would be different.

Thus, faithful members of the kingdom of God on earth, while they are yet mortal, search out their dead ancestors and perform the ordinances of salvation and exaltation for them in the holy sanctuaries set apart for these purposes. Then, upon departing this life, those same faithful souls seek out and teach to their ancestors the saving truths of the everlasting gospel. And thus does the gospel continue to be preached among the dead. (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, Deseret Book Co., 1939, pp. 472–76.)

Save Thyself and Thy Kindred

Logic would have it that the membership numbers quoted by Salt Lake City would be much higher if they were counting al the millions of dead that have had proxy baptism performed in their names.

Question for the mormons. Do general authorities take their turn cleaning LDS chapels?

More recently, during the “First Vision” in 1830, Christ himself declared to Joseph Smith that the various Creeds were an abomination in his sight.

Ah, a Mormon who will actually publicly confess & profess this! (You are a rare Lds bird, Teppe)

(Most Mormons like to play "Duck, duck, goose" & then run on this one)

So, tell us all, Teppe: Tell us EXACTLY what is so "abominable" about the "Apostles Creed" from a Mormon perspective? (And keep in mind that when it was written, all "Catholic" meant was "universal")

Catholic means Catholic, we believe in the same one holy catholic and apostolic Church that the authors of the Apostles Creed believed in. The fact that other organizations have cropped up in the last few hundred years doesn’t change the one holy catholic apostolic Church.

Just got back will reply to freepmail later. Glad you enjoyed.

“You're simply, completely wrong.”

Pretty much sums up all Morg efforts...

More recently, during the “First Vision” in 1830, Christ himself declared to Joseph Smith that the various Creeds were an abomination in his sight.

Pick one; we got more!

FIRST VISION:VARIOUS VERSIONS OF VISIONS


Version Number When Published Brief Description	Age Year	Pillar of light	No. of Person- ages	Father Present	Son Present	Question: Join What Sect?	Remarks-References
1. Official version, written 1838, first Published 1842 (There are minor differences between the various source references, Ensign Jan 1985, page 14)	14 1820	yes	2	yes Both spoke	yes	Join none	Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sophronia join the Presbyterian Church - JSH, pages 49-50, 1981 edition; Times & Seasons, March, April 1842; Ensign Jan. 1985, page 14; Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backamn, Bookcraft, 1971, 1980, Appendix C, page 160f
2. Dictated by Smith to F.G. Williams, Summer to Nov. 1832	14 or 15	yes	1	no	yes Saw Lord, He "spoke"	No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appendix A, page 155f
3. Written by Smith, his 1832 diary, in his own hand	15	yes	1	no	yes Saw the Lord Jesus Christ	No question, told sins forgiven, all do no good	Ensign, Dec. 1984, pages 24-26; ibid, Jan. 1985, page 11
4. Smith's diary of 1835, recorded by Warren Cowdery, Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Smith with Joshua	About 14	yes	One, then another like unto first	?	? Second spoke, saw many angels	No questions, told sins forgiven, Jesus is Son	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appen. B
5. Letter form Smith to John Wentworth, editor of Chicago Democrat	none	no	2	? They spoke	?	No Question	Joseph Smith's First Vision, Appendix D; Ensign, Jan 1985, page 16; Times & Seasons, Vol 3, pages 706-707, March 1, 1842
6. Early church leaders Brigham Young, G.A.Smith, John Taylor	15	no	1 Saw an angel, and asked the angel	no	no	Join none	See Journal of Discourses, 2:17; 18:239; 13:77, 78; 20:167; 12:333, 334.

web/firvista.html
5-11-95, Rev 8-8-98

John Farkas, Berean Christian Ministries, P.O. Box 1091, Webster, N.Y. 14580

Vision??

KJV

Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

ANYBODY???

Like this fine looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Also .... why can’t it be proven by the bible alone without relying on the Creeds?

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.

They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

If the Trinity is so essential to Christianity ... then why did it have to be established by an Emperor in 325 and by a murderous purge in 380-400 AD by Theodosius II?

Christ speaking, "...the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."

3 Nephi 11:36

...by your own heard-heartedness, stiff-neckedness, you have rejected the best qualities that Christ taught.

I'm with YOU! I just HATE it when that happens!

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/17#17

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

And, continuing thru the years, the high ranking leaders of that Organization have said the same!

Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).