Ecumenism is Not Compromise, Pope Says

Pope Benedict XVI underlined the importance of ecumenical work, yet cautioned that ecumenism cannot be seen as a political effort, in a November 18 address to members of the Pontifical Council for Christian Unity.

The Pontifical Council for Christian Unity, founded by Pope John XXIII in 1960, is marking its 50th anniversary. Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury, and Orthodox Metropolitan John Zizioulas of Pergamon, a top ecumenical representative for the Ecumenical Patriarchate, were in Rome this week to join in the anniversary celebrations.

The establishment of this Pontifical Council—originally known as the Secretariat for Christian Unity—was “a milestone on the ecumenical journey of the Catholic Church,” Pope Benedict said, and the group’s work has been vital to “overcoming the sediments of historical prejudice.”

Reflecting on the state of ecumenism today, the Holy Father said that there is a widespread belief that progress has stalled, and thus an “urgent need to revive ecumenical interest and give a fresh incisiveness to dialogue.’

For the Catholic Church, the Pontiff continued, the top priority in ecumenical work is dialogue with the “Orthodox churches and the ancient Eastern churches, with which bonds of the closest intimacy exist.” He reminded his audience that in talks with the Orthodox world, “we have reached a crucial point of confrontation and reflection: the role of the Bishop of Rome in the communion of the Church.”

Speaking more generally about the ecumenical process, the Holy Father warned that it is not “a commitment that falls into what could be called political categories, in which negotiating ability or greater capacity to reach compromise come into play.” Ecumenical talks should seek for the truth, he said, and cannot be satisfied with mediated solutions to controversial problems.

At the same time, the Pope continued, unity in prayer is always appropriate, and prayer will be an indispensable part of every successful ecumenical endeavor. He reminded the members of the Pontifical Council that “we do not know the time that the unity of all Christ's disciples will be achieved, and we cannot know it, because we do not 'make' unity, God 'makes' it.” Therefore all Christians should join in asking God for that precious gift, the Pope conclude

For the Catholic Church, the Pontiff continued, the top priority in ecumenical work is dialogue with the “Orthodox churches and the ancient Eastern churches, with which bonds of the closest intimacy exist.” He reminded his audience that in talks with the Orthodox world, “we have reached a crucial point of confrontation and reflection: the role of the Bishop of Rome in the communion of the Church.”

A valid celebration of the Eucharist can't be had, unless the receiving party has pledged submission and obedience to the Pope's authority over all believers, and the celebrant has valid orders from said Pope. Thus, the short-term goal behind any Catholic ecumenical effort is creating subservience to the Pope.
-- Remember the ultimate goal of ecumenism: Pope

A valid celebration of the Eucharist can't be had, unless the receiving party has pledged submission and obedience to the Pope's authority over all believers, and the celebrant has valid orders from said Pope.

This is false. Putting it in a blockquote with a citation behind it, as though it had some authoritative source behind it, doesn't make it any less false.

Every Eucharistic liturgy the Orthodox hold is sacramentally valid, according to the Catholic church.

That is a really neat trick, Alex...quoting yourself and making it appear like it comes from an article posted by some miscellaneous Catholic.

Some mad skills you’ve got there my FRiend...impressive.

That is a really neat trick, Alex...quoting yourself and making it appear like it comes from an article posted by some miscellaneous Catholic. Some mad skills you’ve got there my FRiend...impressive.

It's called bad HTML proofreading. But you go right ahead and think the worst of me, if it makes you feel better.

"Every Eucharistic liturgy the Orthodox hold is sacramentally valid, according to the Catholic church."

And we aren't even remotely under submission to the the Pope nor are we by any stretch of even a Protestant's imagination, obedient to him (though many of us like him quite a bit)!

It's called bad HTML proofreading. But you go right ahead and think the worst of me, if it makes you feel better.

Taking you at your word (and I have no reason not to do so), I have a question. So with this eclectic collection of quotes you have gathered over the years (which is what the "mad skills" reference referred to), do you maintain them in a relational database, a flat file database, or just a searchable word processing document of some variety?

I ask in all seriousness, because other than the very rare boner like the above, you have an extraordinarily formidable capability to go back and shove peoples' own words in their faces, often months or years later.

And we aren't even remotely under submission to the the Pope nor are we by any stretch of even a Protestant's imagination, obedient to him

Then, according to Papal Bull (Unam Sanctam), you will not attain salvation. Welcome to the Protestant Club!

And we aren't even remotely under submission to the the Pope

You aren't YET Kolo....

Ecumenism is Not Compromise, Pope Says,

No, it isn't. Not in the Catholic Church.

According to the Second Vatican Council all Churches will unify through common communion with the Roman Catholic Church.

"The results will be that, little by little, as the obstacles to perfect ecclesiastical communion are overcome, all Christians will be gathered, in a common celebration of the Eucharist, into the unity of the one and only Church, which Christ bestowed on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."- Second Vatican Council, "Decree on Ecumenism", no. 4.

We don't unify by meeting in the middle. We unify by meeting at the Roman Catholic Church. She doesn't compromise. Everyone else does. Enjoy your freedom while it lasts..

Then, according to Papal Bull (Unam Sanctam), you will not attain salvation.

Here is the text of Unam Sanctam. Can you please provide where in that text that members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches are denied salvation?

Welcome to the Protestant Club!

Kolo is a member of a particular Church under a bishop with valid apostolic succession. He is a member of a particular church with seven sacraments and that has maintained apostolic teaching. You owe him an apology for the grave calumny you have committed against him.

Mark, while having no dog in this fight, a Catholic Freeper has so stated as well. Whom are we to believe as far as the Catholic Church's stance on this issue? A 'Protestant' makes this claim on his reading of the Unam Sanctum and you want an apology, do you ask the same of a fellow Catholic?

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims:

If this is not true, then why in the world does the text of Unam Sanctam begin this way? To go down a couple of paragraphs and insert a conjunction, whereby others are included seems a bit disingenuous. Why not say it in the beginning, in big letters? No, "we are obliged to believe and to maintain..." seems to be the most important point.

A 'Protestant' makes this claim on his reading of the Unam Sanctum and you want an apology, do you ask the same of a fellow Catholic?

No, a Protestant cited Unam Sanctam. I have no idea whether he read it or not. Frankly, I doubt it, as Unam Sanctam deals with relations between the Church and the State, not between the Eastern and Western Churches. But if this individual can provide a quote, I'm all eyes.

And, yes, in fact, I have actually gone after "Catholics" on this board who have supported Feeneyism by the way.

And I didn't ask for an apology for the lack of reading or misreading of Unam Sanctam. It was asking for an apology for accusing a member of an Eastern Orthodox Church of being a Protestant. That is a slap in his face.

(NB: To properly understand Unam Sanctam, you need to know one thing: it was written as a Bull against Philip IV of France, who was trying to subvert the Papacy at that time by insisting on the right to appoint his own bishops without ratification by the Vatican...sort of like what is happening in China today)

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic.

And I believe, if you were to ask an educated Eastern Orthodox, you would find that he would be in full agreement with that statement. See, both East and West subscribe to statement in the Creed that states: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church."

And, yes, in fact, I have actually gone after "Catholics" on this board who have supported Feeneyism by the way

My knowledge of 'Feeneyism' must be limited to Google, but it seems that he was sanctioned for disobedience, ie. not complying with a demand to stop his interpretation of 'outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation' and not for the statement itself. Could you elaborate for me please what Fenneyism is and how it was in conflict with what the Catholic Church actually teaches on the matter? Thanks.

we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins,

And so, OFFICIALLY, there is no salvation or remission of sins outside the Roman Catholic Church. Is that right? I'm just looking for a final, official answer on this. One Catholic says one thing, another another thing regarding this.

Can you please provide where in that text that members of the Eastern Orthodox Churches are denied salvation?

The last line of Unam Sanctam:

"Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Orthodox, like Protestants, deny subjection to the Pope. Ergo, no salvation, according to the Bull.

Kolo is a member of a particular Church under a bishop with valid apostolic succession. He is a member of a particular church with seven sacraments and that has maintained apostolic teaching. You owe him an apology for the grave calumny you have committed against him.

OK, I apologize, Kolo. I acknowledge that you are a "member of a particular Church with seven sacraments that has maintained apostolic teaching". Unfortunately, like Protestants, you cannot attain salvation as long as you are not subject to the Pope.

Hey, smvoice,

It has been admitted to me right here on FR by one of the RCC “anti-defamation” activists, that, given the opportunity, they would again use the sword to enforce Catholic hegemony.

Trent has never been repudiated by the Vatican, that I have seen any documentation for.

Officially, because we will not bow the knee to the Vatican, nor submit to its sacraments, we are ANATHEMA.

“Anathema” still means accursed in any non-rubberized dictionary. It’s hard to get them to say directly that unless we submit to their “baptism” we are hell-bound with the pedel down, but that’s what they believe.

It’s hard to get them to say directly that unless we submit to their “baptism” we are hell-bound with the pedel down, but that’s what they believe.

This is what I run into, also. If it's what you believe, then stand up for it. Why try to hide your beliefs? After all, if the 'one true Church' cannot admit what they believe, how in the world do they expect everyone else to join in this ecumenical paradise?

How are you doing? I haven't seen you posting in a while! Hope everything is going great for you..:)

"How are you doing? I haven't seen you posting in a while! Hope everything is going great for you..:) "

We are doing well out on the field. VERY Busy running our Bible institute as well as assembly.

I don't get to post as frequentlyy as I would like.

I do still burn up my word processors, though, writing to senators and congressmen.

We will have a new Republican congressman from our district. We threw Baron Hill out (D-IN 9th). But I fear that Todd Young won the Republican primary earlier because he is just a little too much establishment-minded, and they backed him.

So, I am busy writing already to Todd Young for the CHRISTIAN cause in our district and state, and actively working to get other Christians to learn how to write letters (for a change).

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