Posted on 08/27/2010 11:45:13 AM PDT by Hank Kerchief
And double predestination says it’s your fault for being born that way.
It is as if God punishes those born without legs for not being able to walk.
“I’ll omit the last sentence in the spirit of fellowship”
Is that the sentence that calls the Pope the Anti-Christ?
Just today I heard a former Presbyterian minister say that those words were in the Westminster Confession.
In the original it states that the Pope is the Antichrist, that the Catholic mass is a form of idolatry, that civil magistrates have divine authority to punish heresy, and outlaws marriage with non-Christians.
At the very least, most Christians believe that God has always known whether or not a man would be saved. Or else He's not omniscienct. He's not God.
If, at the moment of creation, God has "known" a person's destiny, is that "destiny" not fixed in stone?
Scripture tells us that God has called a particular people to Himself. And that people He will save. We have His promise in Scripture that He will give us the Holy Spirit to lead our education and guide our sanctification as we move ever closer to Him. That sanctification includes understanding truth from error.
Do men understand all truth? No. All men are fallen and as Paul says, we sin every day. But we are being refined, according to His purpose in creating us, which is to glorify Him in thought, word and deed.
So we can be reasonably certain that God is aligning His children according to the truth of His word. From my perspective, that does not include veneration of Mary as co-redeemer or following "another Christ" or thinking that sins are perpetually committed and forgiven over and over in an endless sacrifice for sins when Hebrews tells us clearly that Christ's one-time sacrifice on behalf of His sheep has been accepted by God as sufficient to repay the debt, and that God graciously remembers our sins no more.
Are Roman Catholics saved? Some probably are.
Calvin said "Although the devil has long reigned in the papacy, yet he could not altogether extinguish God's grace: nay, a Church is among them."
I could agree with that.
That’s them. They’re in the original 1646 version, but not in the modern versions.
You guys have to make up your minds. Does double predestination "make God the author of sin" or does double predestination "say it's your fault for being born that way?"
The answer is neither. God is not the author of sin, and yet God ordains all things, being the first cause of everything in all time and space. He's God. All existence is sustained by His will.
All men are fallen and all "deserve" condemnation. But God has graciously chosen for Himself a people to redeem by the death and resurrection of His Son.
All men are responsible for their sin. But only Christ is responsible for their salvation.
Oh freddled gruntbuggly/thy micturations are to me
As plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee.
That wasn't the question.
Does it matter, can it possibly matter in one's salvation whether one is a full-bore believing Catholic or not? According to predestination - no.
Or else He's not omniscienct.
Omniscience isn't the point either. It is Calvin's god's double predestination: that some are doomed in the womb and some are saved in the womb. And nothing can change that.
Exhorting people to join a "bible believing" church can have no effect on their salvation either - whether they do or do not. Else double predestination is false.
If double predestination is true, your posts here, not to mention Jesus's entire ministry are only exercises in futility.
cool, so when you find additional proof for your link to “Archangel Michael = Jesus”, do drop by
No man can choose to reject sin and embrace righteousness until and until God determines to regenerate that man by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit. A man must be born again to know the things of God. And that rebirth is God's call, not men's.
Paul anticipated your objections and answered them in Romans 8 and 9.
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -- Romans 9:20-21 "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
“This Church is holy, the one Church, the true Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall NOT conquer her.”St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.
It's a minor point that I started to correct but didn't - Double Predestination says you're doomed, Calvinism says it's your fault.
All men are fallen and all "deserve" condemnation. But God has graciously chosen..
Yep, it's your fault you, but some get a reprieve, and there is absolutely no difference between the two groups. But it's not a gracious god that dooms all, and saves some - in the womb. It is a capricious god, pre-OT capricious.
All men are responsible for their sin.
You cannot be held responsible for something you have no choice and no possible effect upon. You cannot be held accountable for not being able to walk if you have no legs. Merciless.
The god of Calvin is unjust.
This is what gives rise to atheism. An capricious unmerciful unjust punishing God.
God did not pause at Adam and eve and than create everyone else differently or God can be moved from perfection.Thus God would lack perfection from eternity
That means that men by free will become evil since God from created all things good,thus putting an end to Calvin's theory of God predestining people to hell and man having no free will.
Check mate !... end of story!
Saint Augustine would despise calvin and calvinism on Eucharist alone!
All man or all God. Calvinism is blind to the third possibility. Can't even see it.
Of course we cannot be saved without God's grace. Paul also said work out your own salvation.
God doesn't create trash or robots. And robots cannot be held accountable for anything.
So your question about churches is somewhat moot. A man who is being led by the Holy Spirit will not join a church where lies and errors are preached. If he does, it will be temporary and it will somehow serve him to better know the truth when it is presented to him because "all things work for the good of those who love God, who are 'the called' according to His purpose."
What you're also missing about double predestination is that those who are not saved DO NOT WANT TO BE SAVED. They are all similar to Christopher Hitchens, content to be ignorant of God's will and happy to rebuke Him.
The fact that a man WANTS to know God and obey God and love God is evidence that that man is being called by God and brought to Him by the Holy Spirit.
If double predestination is true, your posts here, not to mention Jesus's entire ministry are only exercises in futility.
Certainly on face value it may feel that way. But when you read the Bible you see predestination printed on every page. Thus you don't answer any of the Scriptural points I'm giving you. You just repeatedly protest it's "unfair!"
Start here. Did God know everything that would ever occur in time at the moment of creation?
I thank God I will be held accountable for the good works of Christ within me. I could never merit salvation on my own. It is all Christ, according to the will of God.
“ good non-Catholic posting “? are posters like HarleyD, redgolum, Mr. rogers etc, who disagree with CAtholicism, yet can argue sanely, with courtesy and not resort to insults, false links to Wiccan priestesses (to pose as “catholic websites”), multi-colored fonts. It’s a pleasure to actually discuss and learn about the differences from these posters —> at the end, we may not agree, but we will at least leave with Christ’s peace, not the enemies hate as posts by the OPC group HERE do
Got that right. All men are fallen and all are sinners.
The only difference between the sinner and the saint is the free gift of God's mercy by the imputation of Christ's righteousness.
The god of Calvin is unjust.
Like I said, read Romans 9.
This is what gives rise to atheism. An capricious unmerciful unjust punishing God.
No, atheism is fostered by a belief in men's own abilities. When men empty themselves of the false presumption of their own righteousness, they are then and only then able to be filled with the righteousness of Christ.
Don’t the OPC have a fourteen page excerpted Bible with illustrations?
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