Hoping and Praying for Gog and Magog to Attack

American Vision ^ | June 7, 2010 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:

There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).

One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.

There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]

Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.

There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.

He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.

Endnotes:

1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).

---

Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.

[Ezekiel]

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]

Gog appears to be quite the community organizer.

[dartuser]

Nope. The dirt and rocks and vain genealogies mean nothing now that the Savior has appeared. Dirt and rocks and vain genealogies are not any "integral part" of the salvation that Christ has won.

You have a vary narrow view of salvation history and ignore the OT promises of Israel as a nation. Many of the promises concerning the land, the government, etc. have never been fulfilled in Jewish history as of yet. Since God gave the promises, and he cannot lie, and the promises have yet to be fulfilled ... they are future.

There are believing Jews and believing Gentiles. They are all one in Christ Jesus.

No issues with that statement ... there ARE beliving Jews and Gentiles ... the first Christians were believing Jews, but the entire nation of Isreal was not saved then.

The victory has been won. We're now experiencing its gracious aftermath.

True enough ... but the endgame has yet to happen.

[dartuser]

What was that promise to Israel?

Abrahamic covenant promised land boundaries that have never been possessed by the nation of Israel. There is the kingdom in Daniel that has not come yet. There are the promises of the Davidic kingdom rulership over that kingdom.

The promise was that a Savior would come and give eternal life by grace through faith in that Savior to all who love His appearing.

Fine, that promise was fulfilled, we are not talking about that promise. We were talking about the nation of Israel.

[paladin1_dcs]

bflr

[dartuser]

That is not a fair and accurate portrayal of what preterists believe.

Point taken, but it is what DeMar believes which my comments relate to.

R.C. Sproul ...

He is one I respect alot and have read some of his stuff. He has a great book on Scripture.

If we want to go down this road, let's take a look at extreme hyper-dispensationalists (John Hagee comes to mind with his denial of the need for Jews to have saving faith in Christ) and use them to paint the entire dispensational movement

Fair enough ... I knew there must have been some reason I never read anything from Hagee.

[dartuser]

That is hardly an in-depth study of Dispensationalism, but I will look at it later today.

[dartuser]

And to balance the preterist view of this website ... an opposing scholarly treatment would be found in the articles at this site ...

http://www.pre-trib.org/

[dartuser]

I don't believe eschatology is a salvation matter.

You are correct ... it is not.

None of us really knows.

But both of our sides are trying to come to a solid understanding so we can know ... by exegesis of the relevant Biblical passages. That is what seems to be missing from most discussions of this topic on FR.

But I find more strength and sense of purpose in believing Christ reigns today over the earth as well as heaven.

Wonderful ... and you won't be penalized for your view when you are raptured with the rest of us :-)

[Diapason]

“1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

We are even told when this will happen.

From John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up AT THE LAST DAY.
40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
Jesus answered. 44”No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.

From John 11
23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection AT THE LAST DAY.”

Whether or not you want to refer to the rapture, I suspect we all believe, based on 1 Thessalonians, that Jesus Christ is returning for his saints, first for those who have already died, and then immediately after those still living on earth will be taken up to meet Him. Where we part company is that those who tend to refer to “THE RAPTURE”, tend also to be subscribing to a rather convoluted eschatology. The passages above from the Gospel of John tell us when Christ will return - and its not the second last day, or 7 years before the last day - it’s THE LAST DAY. That is the framework into which all other eschatology has to fit.

[dartuser]

I think the evidence points to dispensationalism being an expedient rationalization for a political agenda.

What agenda is that and what is the ultimate goal of that agenda? You are the first person who has said dispensationalism is linked to a political agenda. Now you have my interest.

[dartuser]

The passages above from the Gospel of John tell us when Christ will return - and its not the second last day, or 7 years before the last day - it’s THE LAST DAY. That is the framework into which all other eschatology has to fit.

None of the passages you cite have anything to do with the return of Christ. They are all resurrection passages. When will Christ raise this person or that person ... on the last day. My question would be "the last day of what?" ... where will we find information on what the last day is? To take this as a "framework into which all other eschatology has to fit" will produce some very "interesting" views.

Would you not agree that any framework for an eschatology should explain ALL the Biblical data ... not filter that data through a selected passage?

[Paved Paradise]

You don’t know anything about me. Meanwhile, several others on here have posted scripture that is very plain (not hard to understand like some scriptures are). Unbelievable. Also, “fundie?” What the heck is that? Oh, you mean people who actually believe the Bible says what it says? Yep, that’s me...

[Paved Paradise]

Way to go, brother. I, for one, am very happy that our salvation is not based on our eschatological beliefs.

[Paved Paradise]

All I know is there is going to be a rapture. I don’t focus on any of the other stuff. It takes too much time away from doing God’s work.

[Paved Paradise]

I like that!

[wmfights]

I don't believe eschatology is a salvation matter.

We don't disagree. However, what I've found is a sound understanding of the end times leads to a better understanding of Scripture.

He is already reigning as king over the kingdom of God/heaven. This current reign is the millennial time frame in Rev. 20, and covers the time between his first and second appearings -- the "end days."

I think you are wrong for several reasons, but lets start with one. When was Satan bound?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Since I believe (and from my reading, historical Christianity believed) that the millennium reign of Christ began at the cross and will run for a period of time until Christ returns and history ends, it makes sense that the binding of Satan occurred when Christ triumphed over death.

Likewise, when Christ speaks about the binding of the strong man in Matthew 12:25-29 He is clearly referencing Himself and the work He accomplished by His death and resurrection.

"But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." -- Matthew 12:28

Frankly, to insist Satan is still licentiously running amok in the world, having not been affected by the Crucifixion, is to further deteriorate Christian particularism. Satan was most definitely bound by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. To deny that seems to be a terrible oversight.

From the first of the following two links...

John 12:31, predicting His death, Jesus says this:

"Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out." -- John 12:31

Please notice that, and notice the parallel to Revelation 20:1-3. Jesus says "now the prince of this world will be driven out." Who is the prince of world? Satan. Where is he being driven from? It has to be this world. In Revelation 20 the angel comes down out of heaven to seize Satan, so in Revelation 20 it appears that Satan is on the earth when he is bound. In John 12:31 Satan is driven out of this world. And, according to John 12:31, when is Satan to be driven out (bound?)? At the time of the crucifixion.

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." -- Colossians 2:15

Here are two good defenses of the fact...

IS SATAN BOUND

And...

WHEN IS SATAN BOUND?

IMO dispensationalists give up the battle before it's begun. And that benefits whom?

Christ appeared and completed the work God gave Him. Satan has no power over Christ's flock. He still beguiles them but He cannot have them. He is bound by the fact of Christ's atonement and resurrection. And just because RCs understand this is no reason to dismiss this belief. The Reformers didn't discard the correct understanding of the Trinity either just because Rome still held to that truth.

Gotta go. Blessings. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You are the first person who has said dispensationalism is linked to a political agenda. Now you have my interest.

I have to run, but that is clearly not true. Perhaps you've not heard this perspective, but it's a familiar one. I didn't make it up. I only swipe positions that have evidence behind them. 8~)

I'll get back to you soon. Thanks for the comments.

[Lee N. Field]

Interesting. Perhaps it’s worth checking out . . . given that y’all are seemingly so much more INTO cultism sorts of things. Y’all are likely much more experts on such things than I am. Though I have read a lot of Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults. However, my impression has been that if y’all don’t find someone in 98.99999998888887778889% agreement with y’all’s perspective, then the “cult” label is automatically thrown out most derisively. Very impressive, that.

REPLACEMENTARIANISM/ PRETERISM/ A-MILLENIALISM/ POST-MILLENIALISM/ RUN-OF-THE-MIL-ISM . . . probably on Halloween.

WITH THE PROPHECIES AND ESCHATOLOGY INVOLVED. Y’all seem to have a huge kennel of straw dogs.

Have the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al rabid cliques undergone mind reading traning from some race of ET’s?

Answer not a fool according to his folly,
lest you be like him yourself.
Answer a fool according to his folly,
lest he be wise in his own eyes.

[Quix]

Probably better to abide by the Scripture, for sure.

However, some of us stoop to responding to the silly REPLACEMENTARIANS, PRETERISTS ET AL

for the recreational sport of it.