Hoping and Praying for Gog and Magog to Attack

American Vision ^ | June 7, 2010 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:

There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).

One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.

There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]

Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.

There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.

He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.

Endnotes:

1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).

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Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.

[wmfights]

Christ defeated Satan on the cross at Calgary. The rest is clean-up.

Okay, I saw the spelling error.

But series, the Reformed have a great many things right but unfortunately their eschatological views are tainted by their long association with the RCC.

Do you believe God is done with Israel? If so why have they been partially blinded to the truth that Jesus is the Christ, their Lord of Righteousness.

[Quix]

Not to my knowledge.

However, people group roots is not exactly something that only kosher Christians can study and write truth about.

[Quix]

The very harsh very personal assualts for years were typically from the Preterists, REPLACEMENTARIANS et al.

The references to UFO stuff is a very mild version thereof.

The rabid clique folks earn every bit of satire they get.

More importantly, I have learned that it helps highlight a lot of things in through provoking ways for a percentage of the lurkers.

That’s sufficient, for me.

I don’t lack Christian love for anyone involved, as persons and as Christians—of whatever remotely kosher sort.

I’m extremely hostile to heresies that essentially accuse ALMIGHTY GOD OF LYING.

I consider such destructive and dangerous to souls.

[streetpreacher]

Someone replied with information that it was.

And I agree. Even a liar can tell the truth. But it does mean that we would have to go over any claim made with a fine tooth comb.

[Quix]

Of course.

I scanned those articles to see if they seemed logical, plausible and remotely scholarly from what I’d already read and studied on the topic.

I didn’t bother that much about any other aspect of those sources.

[streetpreacher]

You see, you’re arguing against your own characterization. None of these preterists are accusing “God of lying”. They are looking at the same Scriptures that you are and arriving at differing conclusions.

I see merit in a lot of their positions but I also have trouble believing that modern Israel is an anomaly (and that too may not be a fair characterization of what preterists believe).

I also see a LOT of holes in dispensational theology. The major problem I see with your theology is that it is so linked to your eschatology that to attack any aspect of that view is to attack the entire system. I guess this explains the hostility from dispys when one doesn’t tow their party line.

[streetpreacher]

“I scanned those articles to see if they seemed logical, plausible and remotely scholarly from what I’d already read and studied on the topic.”

Well, yeah, of course. That’s because they reinforced what you already believed on the subject. That’s not scrutinizing.

[streetpreacher]

Well, I hope that if I end up rejecting your take on Israel, or (gasp!) become a preterist, that won’t make us enemies.

[Just mythoughts]

There are since King Solomon TWO houses, they are called House of Israel, Ephraim, 10 tribes, etc..... and the House of Judah. The land until 1948 was NEVER called Israel. It was called Judah and Samaria. Now Christ Himself gave His first instruction to the newly ‘chosen’ 12 Matthew 10:5- 6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel... the rest of the chapter is the ‘gospel’ Christ gave, and where did this WORD show up?

God promised Abraham that his seed would be as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand of the sea, meaning a very large number.

Paul says Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in HIGH places.....

Christ says Matthew 24:4 “Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in MY name, saying, ‘I am Christ;’ (or I am Christian) and shall deceive many.

AND 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things MUST come to pass, BUT the end is not yet.

The end is not WAR but a fake peace, peace, peace, (mark in the brain, and on the hand) by the fake Jesus that all but the elect will bend a knee, Romans 11:4

[Frumanchu]

mountn man: You would be just as free to read through all of Quix's blather by clicking on a simple hyperlink to the full article. That's the way it's usually done; it's called common courtesy.

Quix: I see you are as rude, inconsiderate and smarmy as ever. In your mind, the end justifies the means; you clearly think you are right and everyone else wrong, and therefore it gives you free license to discard common etiquette and instead spew verbal diarrhea all over someone else's threads. Guess what...the truth will be the truth; it doesn't depend on the sheer power (or verbosity) of your work here.

People like you are why I rarely come here any more.

[streetpreacher]

“Because the loon believes the 2nd coming of Christ already happened in 70 AD.”

That is not a fair and accurate portrayal of what preterists believe. Most mainstream preterists believe in a literal future second coming of Christ. R.C. Sproul, who is a preterist, argues that to deny that essential of the faith makes one a heretic.

If we want to go down this road, let's take a look at extreme hyper-dispensationalists (John Hagee comes to mind with his denial of the need for Jews to have saving faith in Christ) and use them to paint the entire dispensational movement.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Series, I do not know if God is done with Israel and you don't either. God commands all men everywhere to kneel before His Son. That's a fact. All men everywhere.

The eschatology of Christ's victory is a lot older than dispensationalism. The Gospel transforms lives and nations, and the Apostles knew this and were strengthened by that fact. They witnessed that fact.

Recall that in Titus 1:14, Paul not only dismisses "the doctrines of men," but also "Jewish fables."

I am the first to defend the state of Israel, but not for religious reasons (other than as an insufficient offering for the genocide committed against them during WII.) IMO Dispensationalism is a political wolf in sheep's clothing. Its emergence coincided with the geopolitical importance of the Mideast in the mid-19th century. No coincidence.

The great Baptist theologican Arthur Pink started out as a dispensationalist, and eventually came to the conclusion it was not Scripturally sound, and if fact, was counter-productive to the Gospel. Spend some time reading him here...

A STUDY OF DISPENSATIONALISM

[Frumanchu]

Doing quite well, thank you! Hope you are doing well too!

[Just mythoughts]

There are dispensations of time. Now what men/women have attached to what God set in motion is like adding men's traditions to the tablets set in stone.

One such example, Christ's conception was the end of a dispensation, and set in motion the opportunity for salvation. And what will end this flesh age is when the last ‘soul/spirit’ that will, comes to be born of woman. We are not told ‘when’ the souls/spirits were created, we are told that the Adam was not living until the breath of life which means soul was breathed into his nostrils. Heaven is not a soul/spirit production plant.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm not really following some of your post, but I believe there are only two eras of time -- before Jesus Christ and after Jesus Christ.

Time leading up to the cross and time flowing from the cross.

Before salvation appeared and after salvation appeared.

A time of promise and a time of grace.

B.C./A.D.

[Matchett-PI]

"... the only thing that explains that is a Rapture. Now, can you tell me your explanation if you think the Rapture is a false teaching."

It's a false "fundie" teaching, but you _want_ to believe it, so you will.

For those who are interested in a more scholarly treatment of the subject, this will get you started.

[wmfights]

Series,

I'm glad you caught the joke. ;)

I do not know if God is done with Israel and you don't either.

I do know that God is not done with Israel. Paul says so in Roms 11.

God commands all men everywhere to kneel before His Son. That's a fact. All men everywhere.

We don't disagree. Let me throw out one suggestion to you. Try reading references to the Tribulation as the process that God uses to remove the blindness from the Jews.

[kevao]

I do not know if God is done with Israel and you don't either.

Did God's covenant with Abraham have a expiration date?

[Just mythoughts]

I'm not really following some of your post, but I believe there are only two eras of time -- before Jesus Christ and after Jesus Christ. Time leading up to the cross and time flowing from the cross. Before salvation appeared and after salvation appeared. A time of promise and a time of grace. B.C./A.D.

Genesis 1:1 is a dispensation of time. Verse 2 was the end of that time. Verse 3 to the end of Chapter 2 is also a dispensation of time and describes a rejuvenation of this earth to be inhabitable for what Christ said to Nicodemus was required for any to 'see' the kingdom of God.

We are NOT told when our souls/spirit were created, but they have to preexist if we return to the Maker that sent us. Paul talks all about predestination and that is also a dispensation of when certain people were conceived and born in time appointed. Some people were predestined before the foundation of this age ... Ephesians 1:4 Paul certainly was predestined to be where he was when he was.

Jeremiah 1:4-5 Jeremiah was know before he was ever placed in his mother's womb and he was predestined to write and warn the House of Judah the king of Babylon was coming to take Judah captive, as well as look out for the safety of the King of Judah's daughters. These things are written as Paul says in ICorinthians 10:11 Now ALL these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ENDS of the world (age) are come.

[kevao]

Unfortunately, nobody replied directly to my original post, because I see a chronology problem in Ezekiel which seems to contradict the author’s premise, and I would like to hear from others regarding same.

Anybody?

QUIX: No offense, but I don’t know what a “replacementarian” is. I do not claim to be a biblical scholar; yet I am far from ignorant as far as the Word is concerned. Still, I do not understand a single word of the rest of your post, either — too metaphoric for me, sorry. Thanks for the reply anyway.