Hoping and Praying for Gog and Magog to Attack

American Vision ^ | June 7, 2010 | Gary DeMar

[topcat54]

I knew it would happen. The latest incident in Israel has brought out the prophetic speculators again. “A council of rabbis in Israel says their nation’s conflict with Turkey over a flotilla of ‘aid’ ships headed for the blockaded Gaza Strip controlled by the terrorist Hamas organization just may be the beginning of the ‘Gog and Magog process where the world is against us, but which ends with the third and final redemption’” (see here ). Picking up on the story, Christian prophecy speculator Joel Rosenberg takes a similar position but with some caution:

There is growing interest in the Ezekiel prophecies and whether they could play out in our lifetime. I believe it is still too early to say anything definitively. But I agree that current events are strikingly consistent with the prophecies and I believe it is possible that we could see these events unfold soon. The mention of “Gomer” in Ezekiel, for example, refers to the modern-day State of Turkey which will be an enemy of Israel and part of a Russian-Iranian alliance against the Jewish state. I’m not saying the prophecy will necessarily come to pass soon, but I can’t rule out that possibility. We’ve never seen a convergence of geopolitical and spiritual events so consistent with Ezekiel 38–39 in history like we are seeing today (see here ).

One of the arguments used to futurize Ezekiel’s prophecy 2600 years from the time it was written is the claim that the Hebrew word rosh in Ezekiel 38:2–3 and 39:1 sounds like Russia. So then why doesn’t “Gomer” sound like some modern-day nation? Why Turkey? If God wanted to identify Turkey 2600 years ago, then why didn’t He use some sound-alike word that would identify modern Turkey? The same is true of the other nations listed in Ezekiel.

There is no need to speculate beyond the historical boundaries of Ezekiel’s day to force the names of these ancient nations to find a place on a modern-day map and conform to today’s geo-political landscape. Iain Duguid’s comments are helpful in accounting for the historical realities of Ezekiel’s prophecy:

[Gog] is the commander-in-chief ([ chief prince]) of a coalition of forces gathered from the ends of the earth. He himself is from the land of Magog, and he rules over Meshech-Tubal. His allies include Persia, Cush, and Put (38:5), along with Gomer and Beth Togarmah (38:6). It is no coincidence that together these make up a total of seven nations, and it is significant that they are gathered from the uttermost parts of the known world to the prophet. Meshech-Tubal, Gomer, and Beth Togarmah come from the North, Put (Northwest Egypt) and Cush (southern Egypt) from the south and west, while Persia is to the east of Judah.[1]

Ezekiel was given a revelation that was describing his world. You don’t have to be a biblical scholar to figure this out. The people making up these nations were alive and well and living in proximity to Israel in Ezekiel’s day. There is no question about this claim. There is no way to refute it. To maintain that the nations that attack Israel are nations in our day is not allowing the Bible to speak for itself. “To seek the fulfillment in the dark region of the end of the days,” Ernest Hengstenberg (1802–1868) writes, “is the less possible, because most of the nations named either no longer exist, or are no longer heathen. Magog, Gomer, Meshech and Tubal, Phut, Sheba, and Dedan, are no more to be found”[2] on any modern map.

If the battle described in Ezekiel 38–39 does not refer to modern-day nations that will attack Israel, then when and where in biblical history did this conflict take place? Instead of looking to the distant future or finding fulfillment in a historical setting outside the Bible where we are dependent on unreliable secular sources, James B. Jordan believes that “it is in [the book of] Esther that we see a conspiracy to plunder the Jews, which backfires with the result that the Jews plundered their enemies. This event is then ceremonially sealed with the institution of the annual Feast of Purim.”[3] Jordan continues by establishing the context for Ezekiel 38 and 39:

Ezekiel describes the attack of Gog, Prince of Magog, and his confederates. Ezekiel states that people from all over the world attack God’s people, who are pictured dwelling at peace in the land. God’s people will completely defeat them, however, and the spoils will be immense. The result is that all nations will see the victory, and “the house of Israel will know that I am the Lord their God from that day onward” (Ezek. 39:21–23). . . . Chronologically this all fits very nicely. The events of Esther took place during the reign of Darius, after the initial rebuilding of the Temple under Joshua [the High Priest] and Zerubbabel and shortly before rebuilding of the walls by Nehemiah. . . . Thus, the interpretive hypothesis I am suggesting (until someone shoots it down) is this: Ezekiel 34–37 describes the first return of the exiles under Zerubbabel, and implies the initial rebuilding of the physical Temple. Ezekiel 38–39 describes the attack of Gog (Haman) and his confederates against the Jews. Finally, Ezekiel 40–48 describes in figurative language the situation as a result of the work of Nehemiah.[4]

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from “Persia, Cush, and . . . from the remote parts of the north. . . ,” all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther we learn that the Persian Empire “extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces. . .” in all (Esther 8:9). Ethiopia (Cush) and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1 and 3 and are also found in Ezekiel 38:5. The other nations were in the geographical boundaries “from India to Ethiopia” in the “127 provinces” over which Ahasueras ruled (Esther 1:1). “In other words, the explicit idea that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia is in both passages,”[5] and the nations listed by Ezekiel were part of the Persian empire of his day. The parallels are unmistakable (There are many more parallels that can be found in my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future .) Even Ezekiel’s statement that the fulfillment of the prophecy takes place in a time when there are “unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11) is not an indication of a distant future fulfillment as Grant Jeffrey attempts to argue:

It is interesting to note that during the lifetime of Ezekiel and up until 1900, virtually all of the villages and cities in the Middle East had walls for defense. Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls. Yet, in our day, Israel is a “land of unwalled villages” for the simple reason that modern techniques of warfare (bombs and missiles) make city walls irrelevant for defense. This is one more indication that his prophecy refers to our modern generation.

* * * * *

Ezekiel’s reference to “dwell safely” and “without walls . . . neither bars nor gates” refers precisely to Israel’s current military situation, where she is dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense and where her cities and villages have no walls or defensive bars. The prophet had never seen a city without walls, so he was astonished when he saw, in a vision, Israel dwelling in the future without walls. Ezekiel lived in a time when every city in the world used huge walls for military defense.[6]

In Esther we learn that there were Jews who were living peacefully in “unwalled towns” (KJV) (9:19) when Haman conspired against them. Israel’s antagonists in Ezekiel are said to “go up against the land of unwalled villages” (Ezek. 38:11). The Hebrew word perazah is used in Esther 9:19 and Ezekiel 38:11. This fits the conditions of Esther’s day. Jeffrey is mistaken in his assertion that “Ezekiel had never seen a village or city without defensive walls.” They seemed to be quite common outside the main cities. Moreover, his contention that Israel is currently “dwelling safely because of her strong armed defense” is patently untrue. Since 2006, the Israeli government has built more than 435 miles of walls in Israel.

There are many more parallels between Ezekiel 38–39 and Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah. I had one emailer argue with me over the above summary interpretation. He fed me all the standard end-time arguments that are popular with interpretations of Ezekiel 38–39. When I told him to purchase my book Why the End of the World is Not in Your Future and offer a detailed response, he wrote the following: “I’m not buying prophecy books just now, but I will accept a complimentary copy for review.” This is a person who is not serious about Bible study. He’s afraid of what he will find. He wanted to know if I belonged to the “Allegorism school of interpretation” that dismisses a literal interpretation. As I show in my book, I am very literal. I don’t turn horses into “horsepower, bows and arrows into “launching pads” and “missiles,” or chariots into tanks. When the text says “to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods” (Ezek. 38:13), it means silver, gold, cattle, and goods (Ezra 1:4) and not natural gas, potash, or oil.

He and many others like him have adopted a system of interpretation that locks him into a theology of irrelevance. Here is his final comment to me: “Things are winding up very rapidly these days.” Yes they are. We are witnessing the end of humanism. Either get on board to make it happen through the preaching of the gospel, applying the Bible to every area of life, and building an alternative society when the inevitable collapse comes or get out of the way. There won’t be a “rapture” to rescue you. Deal with it.

Endnotes:

1. Iain M. Duguid, Ezekiel: The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1999), 448.
2. E. W. Hengstenberg, The Prophecies of the Prophet Ezekiel Elucidated, trans. A. C. Murphy and J. G. Murphy (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1869), 331.
3. James B. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History (Niceville, FL: Biblical Horizons, 1995), 5.
4. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
5. Jordan, Esther in the Midst of Covenant History, 7.
6. Grant R. Jeffrey, The Next World War: What Prophecy Reveals About Extreme Islam and the West (Colorado Springs, CO: WaterBrook Press, 2006), 143, 147–148.

Gary is a graduate of Western Michigan University (1973) and earned his M.Div. at Reformed Theological Seminary in 1979. In 2007, he earned his Ph.D. in Christian Intellectual History from Whitefield Theological Seminary. Author of countless essays, news articles, and more than 27 book titles, he also hosts The Gary DeMar Show, and History Unwrapped—both broadcasted and podcasted. Gary has lived in the Atlanta area since 1979 with his wife, Carol. They have two married sons and are enjoying being grandparents to their grandson. Gary and Carol are members of Midway Presbyterian Church (PCA).

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Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.

[Captain Beyond]

bflr

[Quix]

. In your mind, the end justifies the means; you clearly think you are right and everyone else wrong,

= = =

OH, REAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLYYYYY?

Have the REPLACEMENTARIAN et al rabid cliques undergone

mind reading traning from some race of ET’s?

[Quix]

LOL.

I was just tweaking the REPLACEMENTARIANS.

You asked for ideas.

I’m still trying to get through all my pings and threads I care to bother about and didn’t want to respond to your query for ideas but I did want to tweak the REPLACEMENTARIANS for their idiotic constructions on Scripture and GOD ALMIGHTY’S TRUSTWORTHINESS.

Preterists et al believe to varying degrees that THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST HAS REPLACED THE BLOOD DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB IN TERMS OF ALL GOD’S PROMISES.

They have to trash a lot of scriptures to hold such crazy notions—yet they do.

So, I accused them of not dealing in ideas that you’d asked for—instead, that they kind of just went into the font factory and scraped up the dropped words and letters and pretended the resulting little piles of collected stray words and letters were reasonable theology on the issues about Biblical prophecies related to blood Israel.

Sorry for the bother.

[Cvengr]

Pink is not sound.

[Quix]

OF COURSE YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE’S NO WAY

70AD

WORKS WITH SUCH PROPHECIES.

[Quix]

THX

[kevao]

I believe there are only two eras of time -- before Jesus Christ and after Jesus Christ.

If events like the Millenium, the Great White Throne Judgment or the creation of a New Heaven/New Earth do not mark different eras in time, I guess you could just as easily argue for two eras of time (different from yours): before Creation and after Creation -- B.C./A.C. :)

[kevao]

Preterists et al believe to varying degrees that THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST HAS REPLACED THE BLOOD DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB IN TERMS OF ALL GOD’S PROMISES.

Well, according to you I must be somewhat of a "preterist": I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ has been "grafted into" the "vine" of the blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in terms of all of God's promises.

But, as far as I know, a "preterist" is someone who believes all of the "end-time" events of Daniel/Ezekiel/Revelation already took place in 70 A.D. And, in that sense I am no preterist, as indicated in my Post #37. Specifically, the text of Ezekiel 38 presents a chronology problem I could not explain away if I were to argue the "preterist" contention.

Sorry for the bother.

No bother, Quix. I appreciate the reply!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Read John 8...

"Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." -- John 8:31-47

I don't know what God's plan is for unbelieving Jews. I pray He will be merciful to their unbelief and bring them to faith in Christ. Their disbelief led to my salvation and the salvation of all gentiles.

I like the explanation found...HERE.

[Quix]

Well, according to you I must be somewhat of a “preterist”: I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ has been “grafted into” the “vine” of the blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in terms of all of God’s promises.

= = =

NO. I believe that, too.

REPLACEMENTARIANS believe that God is

NOT ANY LONGER FULFILLING ANY OF HIS PROMISES TO ABRAHAM

TO THE BLOOD DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM—ONLY TO CHRISTIANS.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I suppose you could say that. Why not?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Pink is brilliant. Read that link and tell me what you think.

[kevao]

I don't know what God's plan is for unbelieving Jews.

Interesting article. Many thanks!

I don't understand your confusion about God's plan for unbelieving Jews. They will, of course, share the same fate as unbelieving Gentiles:

Clearly, God is not "done with Israel", for out of the Great Tribulation will be saved a remnant of 144,000 Jews. This is stated clearly in Revelation. It follows that the rest of the Jews will reject Christ, and therefore share the same fate as unbelieving Gentiles.

What puzzles me is your confusion regarding this issue. I've seen many of your posts throughout the years. Without question, you are someone who has studied the scriptures extensively and are an ardent Calvinist. Why would you, of all people, expect God -- Who is no respecter of persons -- to treat an unbelieving Jew any differently than an unbelieving Gentile?

[roamer_1]

I guess I just must hang out with just the fringe element, as I have never met any of these others.

Huh. Me neither. :P

I don't "pray" for the fulfilment of Gods prophecy. I watch for it. I don't look forward to a horrible war or 7 years of tribulation. I look forward to seeing with my own eyes Gods fulfilment of his promises, and of his return.

I could not possibly agree more! Folks think it is eagerly awaited - well, yes, in a way it is... Our Redeemer draws nigh!

But it is also sobering - With fear, and trembling... The events which are right around the corner are terrible and grim.

Even if one supposes the rapture comes first before any of it, it is horrifying to see so many souls heading for the most important days of destiny, without the barest clue of what they will soon encounter.

The war of Magog will certainly come - Is this the time? Probably. But no one leaps for joy at the thought of any war - especially one of this magnitude.

[...] Prophecy was given to us as a warning sign, or in this case a mile marker. We are approching the end of the expressway, Gods telling us how much more to go until then.

AMEN!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Regarding the Jews, read John 8.

Regarding the Tribulation, I don't believe the term is Scriptural in a future context. Each Christian will suffer for Christ's sake in order to better know the worth of His sacrifice.

Regarding the end times, I believe we are in them. Jesus Christ began His earthly kingdom during his earthly ministry. He is already reigning as king over the kingdom of God/heaven. This current reign is the millennial time frame in Rev. 20, and covers the time between his first and second appearings -- the "end days."

TRIBULATION AND THE ANTICHRIST

I don't believe eschatology is a salvation matter. None of us really knows. But I find more strength and sense of purpose in believing Christ reigns today over the earth as well as heaven. I think this is the message of the Gospel --

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Flattery works, doesn't it? 8~)

I'm the first to admit I don't understand all the extra-Biblical blueprints laid over the Scriptures by dispensationalists.

I think Revelation was written to the seven churches as an exhortation to stay the course, and not as a future time-line of exact events. It's the most allegorical, poetic of the Scriptures, and I don't take a lot of it literally.

I think it's unwise to spend a lot of time on "prophecy." A considerable amount of the bible is not literal. Christ is not "a door." We do not "eat His flesh." And I don't believe 2/3 of the Jews must die to fulfill Biblical prophecy of some supposed slaughter in a coming tribulation (Zechariah 13:7-9) which dispensationalists accept as a future event.

Life is short and I don't plan on spending a lot more time reading about dispensationalism because what I know of it does not seem to be taught in the Bible. I think the evidence points to dispensationalism being an expedient rationalization for a political agenda.

You I like your tie. 8~)

[kevao]

Regarding the Tribulation, I don't believe the term is Scriptural in a future context. Each Christian will suffer for Christ's sake in order to better know the worth of His sacrifice.

Yes, Jesus taught that all believers would suffer trials and tribulations for His sake. But then also, in Matthew 24:21, He spoke:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This is clearly a *very* specific period of unprecedented world tribulation. As Jesus was speaking in future tense, we know this period would follow His time on earth. The only question is, has this period occurred already, or is it still yet to come?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I’m comfortable believing this period of terrible Tribulation occurred with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

[kevao]

Well, I don't know exactly what a dispensationalist is. I've learned tonight that I am most likely not a preterist, although my understanding of that term is not much better than that of dispensationalist....

I don't argue that much of biblical prophecy is allegorical. And I have yet to read anything convincing about who exactly the seven churches of Revelation are. But the fact that some 30% of the Bible pertains to prophecy suggests to me that it is not something for us to dismiss as a waste of time.

To the contrary, Jesus Himself gave us the "signs of the times", and for a reason -- He wanted us to know when the time was at hand!

Luke 21:31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

And, after giving us these signs, He *commanded* us to pay heed!

Luke 21:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."

So while we may have to wade through much allegory and poetic scripture regarding prophecy, Jesus clearly commanded us to pay attention to world events so that we would know, because of His foretelling of the signs we should watch for, when the time of His return was approaching.

[kevao]

I’m comfortable believing this period of terrible Tribulation occurred with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

70 A.D. as the "great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be"?

No offense, but I think that, in context, 70 A.D. was objectively far less tumultuous than, for example, World War I, the Great Depression, or World War II.

Think about it. Did *this* really occur in 70 A.D.?:

Ezekiel 38:18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence.

If so, I didn't hear about it. In fact, other than some Jewish scholars and Christians who know their Old Testament, *nobody* has ever even heard about what happened in 70 A.D., much less than "trembled" at what happened in 70 A.D.