What's WRONG with that? It's a blasephemous lie, a complete crock. It's made-up nonsense. That's what's wrong with it.
Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.
The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.
The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.
"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."
More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."
But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.
But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.
In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.
In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.
In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.
It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.
The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."
Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.
To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.
"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?
"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.
If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.
"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."
Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "
It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."
When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.
"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.
Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."
"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "
But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."
A movement — about geography?
Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."
Life-transforming?
"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.
"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."
Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.
"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.
John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.
"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."
Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.
I haven’t been over there yet. Guess I will go stop by. ;)
It just gets better and better doesn’t it.
Or worse and worse. I beat myself up alot over how young, naive and even stupid I was to ever believe in Mormonism or the BoM.
On the outside, and in Christ, I can see through all the lies and distortions and blasphemies that have so many trapped.
And some people wonder why I am on these threads nearly every day.
This statement is false. The Third Book of Nephi states that the survivors of the destruction were already expressing regret for their wickedness before they heard a voice explaining why the destructions came. The voice did not rejoice or brag about the destruction, but pleaded for the survivors to repent and return to faith in Christ. What is wrong with that?
The voice did not rejoice or brag about the destruction, but pleaded for the survivors to repent and return to faith in Christ. What is wrong with that?
__________________________________________
Plenty if they had never heard of Jesus before that...
There was nobody to “return to”
He could have called 10,000 angels...........
I do have a question "why would I return to faith in chirst, even if I knew who he was (which I don't because he just now showed up) after he killed thousands of my family and friends? Doesn't sound like a guy I'd want to worship.
What's WRONG with that? It's a blasephemous lie, a complete crock. It's made-up nonsense. That's what's wrong with it.
This statement is false. The Third Book of Nephi states that the survivors of the destruction were already expressing regret for their wickedness before they heard a voice explaining why the destructions came. The voice did not rejoice or brag about the destruction, but pleaded for the survivors to repent and return to faith in Christ. What is wrong with that?
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YOU HAVE TO BE JOKING!! The staement is as true as the day is long. 3 Nephi 9 - count the ‘I’s. The voice is bragging that He cause it because of their wickedness.
What is wrong with that??
First, it is made up. The BoM is a lie (except for the plagiarized verses from the REAL Bible).
Second, Christ was just crucified in Jerusalem, and instead of destroying the people THERE because of their wickedness (they crucified the Son of God), there are mass resurrections!
Third, the people of America had never KNOWN Christ, yet they are killed. While those who knew Christ, saw the miracles first hand and were guilty of rejecting Him are spared!
Fourth, it goes completely against the NATURE of Christ’s sacrifice. He came to earth and gave His life to SAVE people, not kill them.
But 3 Nephi is wonderful proof that the Jesus in the Book of Mormon IS NOT IN ANY WAY the Jesus of the Bible.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/9
3 Nephi 9 - 2 Wo, wo, wo unto this people; wo unto the inhabitants of the whole earth except they shall repent; for the devil laugheth, and his angels rejoice, because of the slain of the fair sons and daughters of my people; and it is because of their iniquity and abominations that they are fallen!
3 Behold, that great city Zarahemla have I aburned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof.
4 And behold, that great city Moroni have I caused to be asunk in the depths of the sea, and the inhabitants thereof to be drowned.
5 And behold, that great city aMoronihah have I covered with earth, and the inhabitants thereof, to hide their iniquities and their abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints shall not come any more unto me against them.
6 And behold, the city of Gilgal have I caused to be sunk, and the inhabitants thereof to be buried up in the depths of the earth;
7 Yea, and the city of Onihah and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of Mocum and the inhabitants thereof, and the city of aJerusalem and the inhabitants thereof; and bwaters have I caused to come up in the stead thereof, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the cblood of the prophets and the saints shall dnot come up any more unto me against them.
8 And behold, the city of Gadiandi, and the city of Gadiomnah, and the city of Jacob, and the city of Gimgimno, all these have I caused to be sunk, and made ahills and valleys in the places thereof; and the inhabitants thereof have I bburied up in the depths of the earth, to hide their wickedness and abominations from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up any more unto me against them.
9 And behold, that great city Jacobugath, which was inhabited by the people of king Jacob, have I caused to be burned with fire because of their sins and their awickedness, which was above all the wickedness of the whole earth, because of their bsecret murders and combinations; for it was they that did cdestroy the peace of my people and the government of the land; therefore I did cause them to be burned, to ddestroy them from before my face, that the blood of the prophets and the saints should not come up unto me any more against them.
10 And behold, the city of Laman, and the city of Josh, and the city of Gad, and the city of Kishkumen, have I caused to be burned with fire, and the inhabitants thereof, because of their wickedness in casting out the prophets, and stoning those whom I did send to declare unto them concerning their wickedness and their abominations.
11 And because they did cast them all out, that there were none righteous among them, I did send down afire and destroy them, that their wickedness and abominations might be hid from before my bface, that the blood of the prophets and the saints whom I sent among them might not cry unto me cfrom the ground against them.
12 And amany great destructions have I caused to come upon this land, and upon this people, because of their wickedness and their abominations.
He could have called 10,000 angels
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Yes, and He didn’t. He loved us that much.
That’s my King!
I do have a question “why would I return to faith in chirst, even if I knew who he was (which I don’t because he just now showed up) after he killed thousands of my family and friends? Doesn’t sound like a guy I’d want to worship.
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Fear factor. The only thing I can think of.
Well you know what they say, it ain’t bragging if it’s the truth...
Wait a minute...
Um, never mind.
That is funny, I don’t care who you are...
675
LOL!
That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.
Second, Christ was just crucified in Jerusalem, and instead of destroying the people THERE because of their wickedness (they crucified the Son of God), there are mass resurrections!
You are the only one here who has been claiming that there were mass resurrections prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because those familiar with the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). No man was resurrected before Jesus Christ. "And the graves were opened; and many bodeis of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared uto many" (Matthew 27:52-53). Your idea that at the exact same time mass resurrections were happening in the Old World, New World peoples were being destroyed, is completely false, even if one restricts one's scriptures to the Bible!
Third, the people of America had never KNOWN Christ, yet they are killed. While those who knew Christ, saw the miracles first hand and were guilty of rejecting Him are spared!
This is a totally false statement. A few years before the destructions, here is the spiritual state of the people who would be destroyed: "...the people having been delivered up for the space of a long time, to be carried about by the temptations of the devil whithersoever he desired to carry them, and to do whatever iniquity he desired they should -- And thus in the commencement of this, the thirtieth year, they were in a state of awful wickedness; NOW THEY DID NOT SIN IGNORANTLY, FOR THEY KNEW THE WILL OF GOD CONCERNING THEM, FOR IT HAD BEEN TAUGHT UNTO THEM; THEREFORE, THEY DID WILLFULLY REBEL AGAINST GOD" (3 Nephi 3:19-20, Restored Covenant Edition).
Fourth, it goes completely against the NATURE of Christ’s sacrifice. He came to earth and gave His life to SAVE people, not kill them.
That has nothing to do with why the knowingly wicked people in Mesoamerica were destroyed. They were ripe for destruction, and that is when God chose to execute it, just as, through Isaiah 63:1-6, we know in advance that Jesus Christ will choose the time of His second coming to destroy the wicked. Who dares to counsel God on when or even if He should execute His judgments on the wicked? "I [Jesus Christ] will tread them in Mine anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments" (Isaiah 63:3). That is normally against His nature, but Isaiah saw that Christ will, at His second coming, unleash His anger against who are in open rebellion against Him.
But 3 Nephi is wonderful proof that the Jesus in the Book of Mormon IS NOT IN ANY WAY the Jesus of the Bible.
That is your opinion. Millions of people have rejoiced to read 3 Nephi, because of the beautiful glimpse it gives us our Lord and Savior as He fulfilled His promise in John 10:16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice." I thank God for the Third Book of Nephi, which shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations.
hat tip bookmark
HMMmm...
I wonder just WHAT 'convinced' them?
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