Replies

First, it is made up. The BoM is a lie (except for the plagiarized verses from the REAL Bible).

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

Second, Christ was just crucified in Jerusalem, and instead of destroying the people THERE because of their wickedness (they crucified the Son of God), there are mass resurrections!

You are the only one here who has been claiming that there were mass resurrections prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because those familiar with the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20). No man was resurrected before Jesus Christ. "And the graves were opened; and many bodeis of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared uto many" (Matthew 27:52-53). Your idea that at the exact same time mass resurrections were happening in the Old World, New World peoples were being destroyed, is completely false, even if one restricts one's scriptures to the Bible!

Third, the people of America had never KNOWN Christ, yet they are killed. While those who knew Christ, saw the miracles first hand and were guilty of rejecting Him are spared!

This is a totally false statement. A few years before the destructions, here is the spiritual state of the people who would be destroyed: "...the people having been delivered up for the space of a long time, to be carried about by the temptations of the devil whithersoever he desired to carry them, and to do whatever iniquity he desired they should -- And thus in the commencement of this, the thirtieth year, they were in a state of awful wickedness; NOW THEY DID NOT SIN IGNORANTLY, FOR THEY KNEW THE WILL OF GOD CONCERNING THEM, FOR IT HAD BEEN TAUGHT UNTO THEM; THEREFORE, THEY DID WILLFULLY REBEL AGAINST GOD" (3 Nephi 3:19-20, Restored Covenant Edition).

Fourth, it goes completely against the NATURE of Christ’s sacrifice. He came to earth and gave His life to SAVE people, not kill them.

That has nothing to do with why the knowingly wicked people in Mesoamerica were destroyed. They were ripe for destruction, and that is when God chose to execute it, just as, through Isaiah 63:1-6, we know in advance that Jesus Christ will choose the time of His second coming to destroy the wicked. Who dares to counsel God on when or even if He should execute His judgments on the wicked? "I [Jesus Christ] will tread them in Mine anger, and trample them in My fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon My garments" (Isaiah 63:3). That is normally against His nature, but Isaiah saw that Christ will, at His second coming, unleash His anger against who are in open rebellion against Him.

But 3 Nephi is wonderful proof that the Jesus in the Book of Mormon IS NOT IN ANY WAY the Jesus of the Bible.

That is your opinion. Millions of people have rejoiced to read 3 Nephi, because of the beautiful glimpse it gives us our Lord and Savior as He fulfilled His promise in John 10:16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice." I thank God for the Third Book of Nephi, which shows that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations.

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."

---Joseph Knight's journal.

"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.

(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),

"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,

as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,

and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."

"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"

reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881

in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:

"When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,

Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12

June 15, 1879, pp. 190-91.)

Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:

"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"

("A New Witness for Christ in America,"

Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)

"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."

---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.

That is your opinion, against which we have the testimonies of three witnesses that it was "translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us", and the testimonies of eight witnesses who saw the plates and the engravings thereon, and who handled and hefted the plates. I prefer their real testimonies, which they never denied, to your present opinion, which may have to change in the light of future discoveries.

The "Caractors" are the only tangible evidence in existence related to Smith's story.

No gold plates, no brass plates, no peep stones, no Urim and Thummim... only these "Caractors," not a single one of which is in the purported languages.

Smith's translation of the Caractors. According to Martin Harris (Joseph Smith - History, 1:64), "I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated,* and he said they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters."

Speak right up now in all truthfulness. Isn't it revealing how Smith started out making a stab at creating believable "caractors" but quckly gave up and produced nothing but squiggles, ending up wih a series of nothing more than crude little scribbles? Yet Professor Anthon supposedly translated them!

*Harris must have had two or three pieces of paper with him—one with characters and a translation of them (on the same paper or a separate one) and one with untranslated characters—quite likely the "Caractors." Some Mormon "scholars" have gone out on a limb, sawed it off, and knocked themselves out trying to translate from these true Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic characters a segment that would correspond with a verse from 1 Nephi.

Modern-day experts in Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic. In 1829, any knowledge of these languages possessed by U.S. scholars would have been rudimentary at best. Expertise in them has vastly improved since then. So go ahead, do it. Get any modern expert in these languages to identify which of these "Caractors" are Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac and Arabic. Better still, accept the claim of Mormon apologists that Anthon did indeed so testify and that his appraisal of the Caractors was correct. (Op. cit, pp. 73-75)

Save your money! Samples of Assyriac/Aramaic and Arabic writing:

    .

   .

    .

What say you? Which of Smith's "Caractors" resemble the Assyriac and Arabic ones? No need to pay experts for their analysis. A child could accurately check this out. These writing systems have remained constant for well over 3000 years.

You are the only one here who has been claiming that there were mass resurrections prior to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why? Because those familiar with the New Testament know that the resurrection of Jesus Christ was “the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). No man was resurrected before Jesus Christ. “And the graves were opened; and many bodeis of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves AFTER HIS RESURRECTION, and went into the holy city, and appeared uto many” (Matthew 27:52-53).

- - - -
EPIC FAIL - Matt 27 doesn’t say it was AFTER the resurrection. They didn’t appear in town until after the resurrection. Anyone familiar with the Bible knows that.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

And, even if it were, then perhaps I should have used TIME FRAME, which still in no way negates my statement that Christ killed tens of thousands in the BoM which is completely incongruent with the resurrections in the Middle east.

AFA, the rest are not ‘my opinions’ they are facts. Shame you can’t seem to deal with facts. Suggestion - don’t go into a legal profession.