Posted on 05/27/2010 6:44:33 AM PDT by Colofornian
The discussion on Book of Mormon geography was getting heated. Scholars gathered in Provo, Utah, to discuss their theories about where the events described in the Book of Mormon took place. Some placed the Nephite capital city Zarahemla in Mesoamerica, others in South America. Others argued for a setting in the American heartland.
The president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints attended the two-day Book of Mormon convention. Although he found the discussion interesting, he was obviously concerned that people were getting a little too worked up about their geographic theories. He decided to intervene.
The Book of Mormon geography conference was held at Brigham Young Academy on May 23-24, 1903. But the advice President Joseph F. Smith gave at that conference 107 years ago could apply equally to current disputes over Book of Mormon geography.
"President Smith spoke briefly," the Deseret News account summarized, "and expressed the idea that the question of the city (of Zarahemla) was one of interest certainly, but if it could not be located the matter was not of vital importance, and if there were differences of opinion on the question it would not affect the salvation of the people; and he advised against students considering it of such vital importance as the principles of the Gospel."
More recently, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism described how "Church leadership officially and consistently distances itself from issues regarding Book of Mormon geography."
But the lack of an official position hasn't squelched interest. The subject attracts highly trained archaeologists and scholars and informed — and not-so-informed — amateurs and enthusiasts. Books, lectures and even Book of Mormon lands tours abound.
But something is rotten in Zarahemla — wherever it may be.
In the middle of what could be a fun and intellectually exciting pursuit similar to archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann's famous search for the lost city of Troy, there are accusations of disloyalty tantamount to apostasy.
In one corner is the more-established idea of a Mesoamerican setting for the Book of Mormon. This theory places the events of the book in a limited geographic setting that is about the same size as ancient Israel. The location is in southern Mexico and Guatemala. The person most often associated with this theory is John L. Sorenson, a retired professor of anthropology at BYU, and the author of "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon" and a series of articles on Book of Mormon geography that ran in the Ensign magazine in September and October 1984. A new book, tentatively titled "Mormon's Codex," is in the process of being published.
In the other corner is the challenger, a new theory that places Book of Mormon events in a North American "heartland" setting. Like the Mesoamerican theory, it also is limited in area — but not quite as limited. Its symbolic head is Rod L. Meldrum and, more recently, Bruce H. Porter. Meldrum and Porter are the co-authors of the book "Prophecies and Promises," which promotes the heartland setting.
It wouldn't be hard to predict that some friction might come about from competing theories — that healthy sparring would occur with arguments and counter-arguments. But it has gone beyond that.
The source of the animosity comes from the heartland theory's mantra: "Joseph knew."
Joseph Smith made several statements that can be interpreted to have geographic implications. Proponents of a North American setting see these statements as authoritative and based in revelation. Mesoamerican theorists think that Joseph Smith's ideas about geography expanded over time and included approval of at least some connection to Central America.
To the heartlander, Joseph's knowledge about Book of Mormon locations is seen as proof of his divine calling and a testament to his being the chosen translator/expert of the book. Joseph didn't just know; he knew everything. This position, however, leaves little room for other opinions — or for charity.
"The way I look at Joseph Smith's statements is that he either knew or he didn't know. If he knew, he knew by revelation. And if he didn't know, you've got to ask yourself why he said the things that he said," Porter said. "If he didn't know, was he trying to show off? If he really didn't know, why was he telling people?
"My feeling is that Joseph Smith did not lie," Porter said.
If you don't agree with this line of reasoning, by implication, you think that Joseph lied.
"My authority is Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon," Porter said. "Most of your Mesoamerican theorists, their authority is John Sorenson and Matthew Roper. They picked those as their authority at the neglect of Joseph Smith."
Matthew P. Roper, a research scholar at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute Of Religious Scholarship, naturally doesn't like this characterization. "They seem to be trying to elevate a question of lesser importance, Book of Mormon geography, to the level of the doctrines of the church," Roper said. "And even though they give lip service to things like they know the church has not given an official position, they turn around and say, 'All these people are dismissing Joseph Smith.' "
It is somewhat ironic that believing that Joseph did not "know" also supports Joseph as a prophet. The more Joseph's assumptions about Book of Mormon geography prove to be wrong, the greater a testimony that he did not write the book himself. "We assume," Roper said, "that since Joseph Smith was the translator of the Book of Mormon, and that it was translated by the gift and power of God, that he would know everything about the book that an author would. I would submit that the two are not the same thing. I could translate the 'Wars of Caesar' and not know anything about ancient Gaul or the different tribes."
When Meldrum's theories first became popularized through firesides and a DVD he produced, the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR) took notice and responded with gusto.
"The way he said things, they attack that more than they attack the evidence that he presented," Porter said.
Scott Gordon, president of FAIR, would not disagree. "We view this as a steadying-of-the-ark issue. We really don't care where he picks for his theory on where the Book of Mormon can take place," Gordon said. "What we care about that he is implying that the church is not following the teachings of Joseph Smith. Which means the church leadership, the prophet — everything is not following. And we think that is a very, very dangerous position."
"They are getting really worried because they are seeing this is becoming a movement. That's their words," Meldrum said. "They are just saying it's a movement because they are getting a lot of flak from people who are seeing the DVD and the information and thinking, 'You know what, this makes a lot of sense.' "
But supporters also see the heartland theory as an inspired movement that will transform the LDS Church: "(V)ery few people out there fully grasp the magnitude of this movement and the powerful influence that it is having and the sweeping nature of its message," wrote one prominent supporter. "It will sweep the church and most LDS will not even understand what happened until it's past. … Time is our friend."
A movement — about geography?
Historian Ronald O. Barney has seen similar attitudes in some people supporting Mesoamerica. One person described a particular Mesoamerican book as "life-transforming" and that the book "changed the way I think about everything."
Life-transforming?
"People are hanging their faith on evidence of Book of Mormon peoples," Barney said.
"I just think that this way of thinking about our religion is such a waste of time," Barney said, "It almost suggests we don't trust the Holy Ghost. Not only are we worried that he won't reveal to people the truthfulness of the book, but we want to augment it — even if we have to bend and distort — so that there can be no mistake about its truthfulness."
Meldrum said he doesn't hang his testimony on the heartland theory.
"I don't know that this geography is true. I've said that many times and I want to make sure that that's clear. If President Monson was to tomorrow say, 'You know what? I've had a revelation and the Book of Mormon occurred in Indonesia,' you know what? I'm with him." Meldrum said with a laugh.
John L. Sorenson stands by the Mesoamerican theory, but also the Prophet.
"(Geography) wasn't very important to him and he didn't know much about it," Sorenson said. "Joseph knew what he knew — and what he knew was far more important than geography."
Joseph's nephew, President Joseph F. Smith, would probably agree.
Worth a repost:
Flying Inman Remembrance Day Placemarker
...dedicated to the freedom of those who are
currently enslaved to mormonism and other
American cults.
The need for protective prayer is increasing also.
Agreed.
he had asked to give a presentation on the LDS church and the pastor (Mark) said NO
_____________________________________________
At a Christian Church ???
what arrogance...
Thank God your pastor said NO...
God Bless that good Christian man...
Do any Christian pastors get to come in and “give a presentation on Christianity” in the SCL temple ???
The best part about sadness of losing your parents and the sweetness of this day of remembrance is that now they are gone to that great beyond and they now know the truth about Mormonism. SWEET!
***
Well I think those who pass on will find out how displease the Lord is with one messing with anothers free agency.
Some how one is not thinking right when they try to force another to conform to their will.
When one ponders they should realized it is not the Lord will but their will they were enforce and might have been because of pride.
I love the Church for the Lord has taught me and because I feel the patience and love of the Lord it something with in me wants to do all I can to do His will.
It was my choice and I never felt pressure.
This is something I find that when I was in the mainstream one was threathen if you don’t do this or that you are going to hell!
I see this in the LDS but than I realized that those who acting like this are not listening to the counsel how to treat one another.
I drawn the brethren who have the Spirit of Love and patience
I also realize in the bigger picture if one has not yet arrive to place in their being not to be bossy or mini tyrant that it is who must be patience with them and not end up like them because they annoyed me!
The choice is our own how we are going to respond!
I love the church for the lord has taught me
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I love the LORD Jesus Christ because He has shed His blood on the Cross and died to save me...
It was my choice and I never felt pressure.
______________________________________________
But we feel pressure from you...
It was my choice and I never felt pressure.
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But we feel pressure from you...
***
Why is it not the anti trying to deprogram the LDS as so many here like to say...
oh Jesus is over here Resty not there that the bad man JS so over here Resty.
I also realize in the bigger picture if one has not yet arrive to place in their being not to be bossy or mini tyrant
__________________________________________
Hang in there Resty...
I’m sure you’ll arrive there one day...
Well Resty, if you know not to hang around the teachings of the fornicator Joey Smith, why do you continue to do it ???
You cant have both...Jesus and the world...
The destructions that occurred in Mesoamerica during the time that Jesus was suffering on the cross happened about a year prior to Christ visiting His people in Mesoamerica and blessing their children, as I have quoted from 3 Nephi. So your “jesus then proceeded to burn, drown, and bury” is a misrepresentation.
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NOT AT ALL. Just to make sure I went back and checked those chapters.
The destructions and murders TOOK PLACE AFTER THE CRUCIFIXION, NOT A YEAR BEFORE. YOU ARE INCORRECT.
3 Ne. 8:5 And it came to pass in the a*thirty and fourth year, in the first month, on the fourth day of the month, there arose a great storm, such an one as never had been known in all the land.
Then it goes on to tell of the destruction and the 3 days of darkness from the storm. During the 3 days of darkness (right after Christ’s death) is when they hear Christ’s voice stating that He caused these deaths. Nor is there anything in the text that would even indicate that a year passed. Therefore your assertion that it was a year before is incorrect and misleading.
The footnotes to this are for the Crucifixion of Christ not ‘a year before’.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/8/5a
Footnotes
5a
Hel. 14: 20 (20-27)
20 But behold, as I said unto you concerning another asign, a sign of his death, behold, in that day that he shall suffer death the sun shall be darkened and refuse to give his blight unto you; and also the moon and the stars; and there shall be no light upon the face of this land, even from the time that he shall suffer death, for the space of cthree days, to the time that he shall rise again from the dead.
3 Ne. 11: 2.
2 And they were also conversing about this Jesus Christ, of whom the asign had been given concerning his death.
b
TG Jesus Christ, Crucifixion of.
TG Jesus Christ, Death of.
Complete chapter can be found here:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/8
The RLDS (CoC) does not have the Book of Mormon online yet.
So, again John, why would Jesus’ death cause resurrection in Jerusalem at His death while He kills tens of thousands for wickedness (AFTER He atoned for their sins) halfway around the world AT THE SAME TIME!!!!
Yeah, seriously. Apparently this guy showed up uninvited to a interfaith breakfast and asked ALL the pastors.
And they accuse Christians of ‘sheep stealing’?!?!? ROFL.
Mark isn’t my pastor, he is my friend’s.
But my pastor would have acted the same way.
It appears that this may have been a recon mission because of some of the LDS members in the stake leaving and getting saved at this particular church and the fight with my friend’s husband to get him out of LDS, inc.
Friend’s hubby “D” needs prayers, real spiritual battle going on there.
Some how one is not thinking right when they try to force another to conform to their will.
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You mean like Mormonism???
Why is it not the anti trying to deprogram the LDS as so many here like to say
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Honey, I can’t speak for all of us but I AM trying to ‘deprogram’ you. Or I am trying to let God use me to deprogram you.
That is the only way you will ever see Christ for who He really is, is if the chains that bind you (your programming) to Mormonism are broken.
Been there, done that, felt the heartache of losing my ‘religion’ and the pure joy of finding a personal intimate relationship with Jesus.
I have no argument with you or any individual that chooses Mormonism. I am astounded that you actually and truthfully believe it and keep trying to defend it. In my immediate family I am surrounded by Bishops, Stake Presidents and even former Prophets. (Harold B. Lee) My brother is a bishop and two nephews are Bishops.
The fact that you gained a testimony I say good for you.
I never got one. Every time I went through that fasting and praying thing, the answer I got was a deafening silence.
I was embarrassed that I went along with the program so long when in my heart I knew it was not true. Two of my college roommates were from Huntsville Utah. One was a non member. He gave me Fawn McKay’s book to read. That is when it all started for me. Then it was the Kinderhook Plates hoax and later the Book of Abraham hoax.
This thread is all about the geography part of the same hoax. I have a testimony that none of it is of God.
Sorry my good friend to have to say it like that. And yes my folks in that great beyond do know the truth now!
An excellent verse.
Here's a good "Inman" motto passage...too long, tho, for a jacketpatch!
Does not wisdom call?
Does not understanding raise her voice?
On the heights beside the way,
at the crossroads she takes her STAND;
beside the gates in front of the town,
at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:
"To you, O men, I call,
and my cry is to the children of man." (Proverbs 8:1-4, ESV)
Some how one is not thinking right when they try to force another to conform to their will.
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You mean like Mormonism???
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Many in the mainstream are far more guilty of coercing then those who are LDS this is the fact!
it is a natural tendency to try to maniputlat another in the pass months I been told I would go to hell if I stayed a Mormon by mainsteam who are not even my family members what you call that?
I have been a member sinse 1982 at no time did anyone try to manipulate me of force me to do things.
Sadly some might run into a bishop who was raied by tyrant and try to rule that way but that is not how the Lord works and I know this for a fact.
Anything you can work out with the Lord one would be wise not to ask a lay bishop for each of us is a product of our upbring.
If one does go for another point of view or counsel one should go home an pray about the discussion.
Each of us are in the end responsibe for our own actions.
This is a lay Church it is a blessing when we do run into those who are on the same page as the Lord. I have had the pleasure many times.
The LDS and those of the Jewish faith have similar parells for there is a wide range of diversity both have in common from praciting the faith to variation of the word even have Jewish atheist as well LDS atheist.
Sorry my good friend to have to say it like that. And yes my folks in that great beyond do know the truth now!
***
I understand
Henry Ford believe “if you think you can you can” , “if you think you can’t you can’t” both were right!
One was about vision, creating achievement and the other was about doubt, impossible no vision etc. both kinds of minds achieved their end result!
“I am astounded that you actually and truthfully believe it and keep trying to defend it.”
****
It is not hard to defend when I experience it and no longer thrist for more.
I am glad I did not have the pressure of family members where as in the scheme of things one can lead one to water but it is the spirit of the Lord that holds water which fills the cup
And yet we hear SO much from MORMONS about that group that met in Nicea, 1700 or so years ago...
And just WHO are THESE folks?
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