Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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From MY POV, this is a critical period in the history of the world, and of, say, Christendom (a term offensive to Jehovah's witnesses, I know.)
Instead of working meticulously toward if not agreement, at least understanding and, as it were, a division of the front, so that where we can cooperate wholeheartedly we will do so, and where we cannot we will wish each other well and hope to meet again after the battle...
Instead of that from both sides we get terms of abuse, rhetoric which heats, rather than cools emotions, continual challenges of the kind which force one to take a deep breath and whisper a prayer to avoid taking the assault personally and responding in kind.
I am not saying YOU are doing this, but it is hard to imagine anyone reading this thread and not thinking that it is being done far too much by far too many on both sides.
Among the graces I get from praying Rosaries in front of Planned Parenthood is the yearning to reach out in charity to the brethren with whom I disagree, not only for the charity itself but so we can form ranks and pray together for a renewal of hearts and minds in the US and around the world.
And I do think there is at least a little rejection of the kind of speculation to which we all need to be open for effective interdenominational conversation.
My reference to trans-finite numbers was pretty much scoffed at right away. But any Christian parent knows that all his or her devotion and love go to Jesus AND ALL of it goes to his or her child, that Love for Jesus gives more love to give to the child.
My experience of Marian devotion is that it arises out of and returns to my devotion to Jesus. And similarly, my devotion to Dominic leads me to devote myself more fully to Christ, while my devotion to Gabriel the Archangel presses me to give myself daily to God, as Mary did, so that grace will bring Love to birth through me.
(And wow, do I have a long way to go on that one!)
So if, right at the starting gate, the search for language to describe the arithmetic of love is turned into debate, how can we hope to communicate about Him who IS Love?
And yes, it DOES pain me to see the scorn and contempt for the family through which IHS carries me to His bosom. So YES I AM slowly learning to thank God that He deigns to use that scorn to make me a more fitting conduit of His Love.
Our friendship is precious to me. So, because of that friendship I will speak as plainly as I have the grace to speak. I grieve for the gratuitous hostility shown by the Catholics. The gratuitous hostility coming from the non-Catholics wounds me. That's the way it is.
(Walter Cronkite's estate gets $.10 every time I type that.)
Oh? You don't?
That's not what comes across on this thread.
Give it all to Mary [Catholic Caucus]
Treating Mary like God is not going to get you anything as God is the only one who can answer prayer.
Give it all to whom?
The answer is supposed to be God. Anyone else pushes it into idolatry.
Matthew 22:34-40 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Mark 12:28-31 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'There is no commandment greater than these."
Luke 10:26-28 "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
If you don't worship Mary, why are you advocating giving it all to HER?
i DON’T KNOW of any Protty hereon who pretended it was RC doctrine . . . just that a frequent RC poster asserted it most fiercely. And, that poster tends to post with a very authoritative tone about what RC’s believe and do. So, it was a bit startling to read.
Kind of shoots down the fantasy of homogeneity of belief and practice in the Vatican Institution.
**If only Catholics would display the same level of devotion to Christ as they display to Mary....**
Oh, my goodness, your statement reveals that you nave never attended a Catholic Mass and do not know that Christ is at the center of it. Am I correct in that assumption. I’m surprised at your statement here.
When I give it all to my wife, we not only have a baby, but together we raise her, and carry her through deathly illness to health, and see her become a strong warrior for Jesus in her own right. Giving it all to each other meant we had more to give to each other and more to give to our daughter.
Giving it all to Jesus has meant having more to give. Giving that more to Mary, has mean having more to give to Jesus. And more to give, period. Giving some, in my case, to Dominic -- and lately Blessed Margaret of Castello and Blessed Jordan and Saxony have come to my attention -- ends up with a stronger passion to give all to Jesus, so that my hourly prayer to Him is that he take my heart and fill it with himself.
Sure, on PAPER, with a bean-counter spirituality, it would seem that to spend love here would mean less love to spend there. I can understand the thinking. But God is Love, so to Love there is no end. So transfinite arithmetic will do far better than the cold and parsimonious love which counts love spent here as love lost there.
This is not the zero-sum mathematics that leads to talents wrapped in a napkin and buried. This is the arithmetic of talents traded and doubled that the master who has everything will have more, and will share that more with all.
You do know that Bible study is, as we say, "indulgenced," right? That is, the Vatican declares spiritual benefits accrue to those who read the Bible for half an hour.
Mind you, since we all 'know' that Church doesn't want us to read the Bible, I guess this indulgence must be viewed as an oversight, right?
I do not see the question as a matter of spiritual mathematics but rather, a matter of Spiritual priorities.
If we love any thing or any one equal to or more than God - if only for a moment - then that thing or that one is for us an idol. And that could be a wife, a child, an idea, a church, self, possessions, etc.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. - Matt 16:23-25
It's "about" surrendering all to God. All.
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all [Greek word holos] thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
I GREATLY APPRECIATE YOUR KIND AND THOUGHTFUL REPLY.
I *think* you know I share such goals as you articulated.
I think you know I have attempted to advance such at different times . . . each time has been scuttled by hostilities. I’ll refrain from noting my perceptions about primarily from which side.
I’m curious . . . BTW . . . IF you saw some hideous idolatry, blasphemy that you believed/perceived me or my congregation or Pentecostalism in general to be chronically caught up in . . .
Do you honestly believe I would resist with great hostility and self-righteous affrontedness your ministrations to alert me to such and persuade me away from such?
My experience, attitude and stances over the whole of my life has been to—usually—be too quick to agree with others about where I was wrong or my reference group was wrong. I’ve been so eager to grow, improve, become more Christ-like I far too often far too readily accepted any criticism as valid whether it came out of a bad faith place in the accuser or had any objective reality or not.
Actually, I’ve noted such idolatry aspects in some Pentecostal circles and congregations, myself.
I don’t have a solution for the unity in diversty problem. I do have something percolating that I hope to propose to the RM at some point. However, it would be a significant addition of challenges on top of an impossible job already. I wouldn’t blame him for instantly shooting the idea down.
If, on the other hand, he didn’t, perhaps a core of souls with attitudes, stances, behaviors, relationships that were most Christ-like could at least set a standard and model more convincingly more often that which you and I seek.
I also confess that I enjoy intense exchanges, as you know. I don’t see them in near the negative light you do—even with a lot of instense fiercely expressed emotions. If the folks can walk away still caring for each other with Christ’s Love, and with increased understanding between them, that’s sufficient for me.
I think a lot of the thin-skinned sensitivity about intense emotions and other such stuff is a sign of chronic insecurity, self-righteous arrogance, !!!!CONTROL!!!! freaque-ism and the like that all needs to go to The Cross anyway.
However, I do appreciate your perspective that more collegial tones and exchanges would be more winsome and more Christ-like in a list of ways before a watching world.
Yes, it is a critical period of the world. The world IS literally going to hell in OThuga’s and his masters’ handbasket—quite deliberately and premeditatedly.
And the BODY OF JESUS THE CHRIST ACROSS ALL BOUNDARIES WILL HAVE TO STAND TOGETHER IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BIBLICAL TRUTHS AND IN HIS WILL. Organizational boundaries will not only not cut it, they will be hazardous and used by satan and his human stooges, in many contexts and ways.
It will take the wisdom of Holy Spirit spread through the WHOLE Body of Christ to survive and counter such remotely effectively, imho.
I hear you about your relationship to Mary etc. And, I think I understand your words and your heart. I’m sorry but I have to note that I still cannot wrap my mind around even your expressions of such and make them jive with my understanding of Scripture.
However, as I have noted, I have felt that The Lord has instructed me directly that You have an authentic earnest relationship with Him as the priority in your life and that I’m to trust your thing about Mary to Him. So, I do as best I can at that and go on enjoying our Friendship and Brotherhood.
I always greatly appreciate and cherish your candor regardless of how pointed it may be in my direction.
I don’t have a solution at the moment about the mathematics of giving ALL one’s love to whomever. I understand your assertions. I have loved individuals rather intensely myself. Overly so vis a vis my love of God as the person tangibly present was so much easier to love intensely somehow. God had to get extremely strict and stern with me about that. That’s one reason I’m so keen to help others avoid such harsh discipline on such an issue of idolatry toward any other person or thing.
I would greatly love a genuine dialogue about that issue. That’s why I began this thread. I believe it’s a crucial BIBLICAL issue for every believer under any label.
I think such . . . boundary violations . . . are too often too slippery and hard to discern within ourselves. Scripture is simply true—ALL OUR HEARTS ARE DECEITFULLY WICKED, WHO CAN KNOW THEM BUT HOLY SPIRIT. And some have made a practice of turning a deaf ear to Him on such problems for decades.
It grieves me horrifically to have such a thread and not find one single Roman Catholic post that they give their ALL to Jesus alone—in any sense of the word. THAT WOUNDS me.
It grieves me that one side is chronically defending and rarely, if ever, articulating their own junk candidly, accurately and Biblically before the opposing side does.
I think everyone hereon knows that I’m fairly quick to slap down any Protty that I observe to assert or behave in a grossly unBiblical way whether about doctrine or any other aspect of spirituality and spiritual relationships.
I’ve ‘slapped at’ Dr E and others for this or that issue that I found seriously concerning—privately and publically. I’ve slapped at my fellow Pentecostals on occasion.
I virtually never see or even hear of you leaders on the Roman Catholic side taking any of your folks to task privately and certainly not publically. That’s puzzling.
I believe you have occasionally tried to wake some up privately but I only have a vague sense of that once or twice.
Certainly I catch train loads of flack from lots of Prottys, some Pentecostals and a huge raft of Roman Catholics! LOL. I prayerfully consider even the most off the wall criticism and see if there’s anything The Lord would have me learn from it. I don’t want to waste any sorrows or even any unwarranted flack.
Anyway, Thanks tons for your candor. I still love and appreciate you tremendously.
I can’t guarantee you’ll like me any better tomorrow. I can guarantee that I’ll prayerfully ponder your words somewhat extensively.
LUBBRO.
My apology. I should have posted that in regular font per your request long ago.
INDEED.
It still don’t see that issue very reasonably addressed by the other side—much less sufficiently.
I wish I did.
I have attended mass. My step-mother was Roman Catholic.
I think you have a point in terms of the wording of the mass etc.
However, as we have seen hereon abundantly and multiple times on countless threads . . .
the RELATIVE EMPHASES is
EXTREMELY ASKEW from being remotely Biblical from our Protty perspective—EVEN GIVING as much grace about different perspectives as we can.
And, instead of addressing the discrepencies . . . and proving us wrong, it seems that time after time, the Roman Catholic side ends up DEMONSTRATING THE WORST OF WHAT WE ARE ARTICULATING is the problem.
I can’t recall in the 10+ years hereon any thread began by a Roman Catholic et al titled:
GIVE IT ALL TO JESUS. I can’t recall one even close to that title.
There have been dozens of threads extoling Mary’s virtues, purported offices and purported ministrations in behalf of earth-bound Believers . . . by comparison.
THAT STARK DIFFERENCE COMES OUT OF A DIFFERENCE IN PRIORITIES OF THE HEART AND OF THE MIND.
THERE IS NO RATIONALIZING THAT. THERE IS NO ESCAPING THAT. THERE IS NO PRETENDING GOD TURNS A BLIND EYE, TO THAT.
I would love to see a different picture. I have to trust the picture I see has some correlation with AUTHENTIC REALITY.
Scripture never uses the word Trinity either,yet you (I assume) believe God is Triune-The Church Fathers make the Trinity clearer than Scripture does
You persistently say things so well and so Biblically.
I think this bears repeating. I find it exceedingly accurate to Scripture, to reality and to human nature.
IT IS HUMAN NATURE to excuse ourselves on such scores. It is the nature of the flesh. The flesh always exalts itself and excuses itself for being fleshy. The flesh always seeks something or someone ELSE to raise in priority sufficiently to compete with God for our affections, our time, our energies, our emotions, our thought time.
Denying or escaping that is not wisdom, is not Christ-like, is not redemptive, is not a good route to Eternal Life—actually, won’t get there at all.
I do not see the question as a matter of spiritual mathematics but rather, a matter of Spiritual priorities.
If we love any thing or any one equal to or more than God - if only for a moment - then that thing or that one is for us an idol. And that could be a wife, a child, an idea, a church, self, possessions, etc.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. - Matt 16:23-25
And again,
No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.- Luke 16:13
And again,
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26
And again,
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. - Mark 10:21
And it doesn’t even need to be pleasant. If we are wallowing in self-pity or anger or if we stub our toe, then for as long as that emotion possesses us, it is an idol to us.
It’s “about” surrendering all to God. All.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19
There is only One Great Commandment and if we don’t get that right, we are in deep Spiritual peril:
Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all [Greek word holos] thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
God’s Name is I AM.
I believe the Christians fed to wild beast in defense of Christianity were of Christ ,not some person living in comfort posting modernism on FR like you.
I find that an extremely weak argument supporting anything.
I gather you think or yourself above men(church Fathers) involved in the canon of Scripture led by the Holy Spirit as if God only works through quix posting on FR.
Why would anyone care what you think?
Who says your not prone to error? And why is it that protestants are not united with your belief. Are you some special messenger of God that has no consistent historical interpretations of Scripture?
[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:1
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
That sure comes across as a snide, snotty, haughty accusation.
Evidently some folks have a very hard time discerning my heart.
Thankfully, a lot of folks don’t have such a hard time.
Certainly God doesn’t.
I find your accusation somewhat irrational and totally unfounded and unrelated to my posting.
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