From MY POV, this is a critical period in the history of the world, and of, say, Christendom (a term offensive to Jehovah's witnesses, I know.)
Instead of working meticulously toward if not agreement, at least understanding and, as it were, a division of the front, so that where we can cooperate wholeheartedly we will do so, and where we cannot we will wish each other well and hope to meet again after the battle...
Instead of that from both sides we get terms of abuse, rhetoric which heats, rather than cools emotions, continual challenges of the kind which force one to take a deep breath and whisper a prayer to avoid taking the assault personally and responding in kind.
I am not saying YOU are doing this, but it is hard to imagine anyone reading this thread and not thinking that it is being done far too much by far too many on both sides.
Among the graces I get from praying Rosaries in front of Planned Parenthood is the yearning to reach out in charity to the brethren with whom I disagree, not only for the charity itself but so we can form ranks and pray together for a renewal of hearts and minds in the US and around the world.
And I do think there is at least a little rejection of the kind of speculation to which we all need to be open for effective interdenominational conversation.
My reference to trans-finite numbers was pretty much scoffed at right away. But any Christian parent knows that all his or her devotion and love go to Jesus AND ALL of it goes to his or her child, that Love for Jesus gives more love to give to the child.
My experience of Marian devotion is that it arises out of and returns to my devotion to Jesus. And similarly, my devotion to Dominic leads me to devote myself more fully to Christ, while my devotion to Gabriel the Archangel presses me to give myself daily to God, as Mary did, so that grace will bring Love to birth through me.
(And wow, do I have a long way to go on that one!)
So if, right at the starting gate, the search for language to describe the arithmetic of love is turned into debate, how can we hope to communicate about Him who IS Love?
And yes, it DOES pain me to see the scorn and contempt for the family through which IHS carries me to His bosom. So YES I AM slowly learning to thank God that He deigns to use that scorn to make me a more fitting conduit of His Love.
Our friendship is precious to me. So, because of that friendship I will speak as plainly as I have the grace to speak. I grieve for the gratuitous hostility shown by the Catholics. The gratuitous hostility coming from the non-Catholics wounds me. That's the way it is.
(Walter Cronkite's estate gets $.10 every time I type that.)
I GREATLY APPRECIATE YOUR KIND AND THOUGHTFUL REPLY.
I *think* you know I share such goals as you articulated.
I think you know I have attempted to advance such at different times . . . each time has been scuttled by hostilities. I’ll refrain from noting my perceptions about primarily from which side.
I’m curious . . . BTW . . . IF you saw some hideous idolatry, blasphemy that you believed/perceived me or my congregation or Pentecostalism in general to be chronically caught up in . . .
Do you honestly believe I would resist with great hostility and self-righteous affrontedness your ministrations to alert me to such and persuade me away from such?
My experience, attitude and stances over the whole of my life has been to—usually—be too quick to agree with others about where I was wrong or my reference group was wrong. I’ve been so eager to grow, improve, become more Christ-like I far too often far too readily accepted any criticism as valid whether it came out of a bad faith place in the accuser or had any objective reality or not.
Actually, I’ve noted such idolatry aspects in some Pentecostal circles and congregations, myself.
I don’t have a solution for the unity in diversty problem. I do have something percolating that I hope to propose to the RM at some point. However, it would be a significant addition of challenges on top of an impossible job already. I wouldn’t blame him for instantly shooting the idea down.
If, on the other hand, he didn’t, perhaps a core of souls with attitudes, stances, behaviors, relationships that were most Christ-like could at least set a standard and model more convincingly more often that which you and I seek.
I also confess that I enjoy intense exchanges, as you know. I don’t see them in near the negative light you do—even with a lot of instense fiercely expressed emotions. If the folks can walk away still caring for each other with Christ’s Love, and with increased understanding between them, that’s sufficient for me.
I think a lot of the thin-skinned sensitivity about intense emotions and other such stuff is a sign of chronic insecurity, self-righteous arrogance, !!!!CONTROL!!!! freaque-ism and the like that all needs to go to The Cross anyway.
However, I do appreciate your perspective that more collegial tones and exchanges would be more winsome and more Christ-like in a list of ways before a watching world.
Yes, it is a critical period of the world. The world IS literally going to hell in OThuga’s and his masters’ handbasket—quite deliberately and premeditatedly.
And the BODY OF JESUS THE CHRIST ACROSS ALL BOUNDARIES WILL HAVE TO STAND TOGETHER IN HIS BLOOD, IN HIS SPIRIT, IN HIS BIBLICAL TRUTHS AND IN HIS WILL. Organizational boundaries will not only not cut it, they will be hazardous and used by satan and his human stooges, in many contexts and ways.
It will take the wisdom of Holy Spirit spread through the WHOLE Body of Christ to survive and counter such remotely effectively, imho.
I hear you about your relationship to Mary etc. And, I think I understand your words and your heart. I’m sorry but I have to note that I still cannot wrap my mind around even your expressions of such and make them jive with my understanding of Scripture.
However, as I have noted, I have felt that The Lord has instructed me directly that You have an authentic earnest relationship with Him as the priority in your life and that I’m to trust your thing about Mary to Him. So, I do as best I can at that and go on enjoying our Friendship and Brotherhood.
I always greatly appreciate and cherish your candor regardless of how pointed it may be in my direction.
I don’t have a solution at the moment about the mathematics of giving ALL one’s love to whomever. I understand your assertions. I have loved individuals rather intensely myself. Overly so vis a vis my love of God as the person tangibly present was so much easier to love intensely somehow. God had to get extremely strict and stern with me about that. That’s one reason I’m so keen to help others avoid such harsh discipline on such an issue of idolatry toward any other person or thing.
I would greatly love a genuine dialogue about that issue. That’s why I began this thread. I believe it’s a crucial BIBLICAL issue for every believer under any label.
I think such . . . boundary violations . . . are too often too slippery and hard to discern within ourselves. Scripture is simply true—ALL OUR HEARTS ARE DECEITFULLY WICKED, WHO CAN KNOW THEM BUT HOLY SPIRIT. And some have made a practice of turning a deaf ear to Him on such problems for decades.
It grieves me horrifically to have such a thread and not find one single Roman Catholic post that they give their ALL to Jesus alone—in any sense of the word. THAT WOUNDS me.
It grieves me that one side is chronically defending and rarely, if ever, articulating their own junk candidly, accurately and Biblically before the opposing side does.
I think everyone hereon knows that I’m fairly quick to slap down any Protty that I observe to assert or behave in a grossly unBiblical way whether about doctrine or any other aspect of spirituality and spiritual relationships.
I’ve ‘slapped at’ Dr E and others for this or that issue that I found seriously concerning—privately and publically. I’ve slapped at my fellow Pentecostals on occasion.
I virtually never see or even hear of you leaders on the Roman Catholic side taking any of your folks to task privately and certainly not publically. That’s puzzling.
I believe you have occasionally tried to wake some up privately but I only have a vague sense of that once or twice.
Certainly I catch train loads of flack from lots of Prottys, some Pentecostals and a huge raft of Roman Catholics! LOL. I prayerfully consider even the most off the wall criticism and see if there’s anything The Lord would have me learn from it. I don’t want to waste any sorrows or even any unwarranted flack.
Anyway, Thanks tons for your candor. I still love and appreciate you tremendously.
I can’t guarantee you’ll like me any better tomorrow. I can guarantee that I’ll prayerfully ponder your words somewhat extensively.
LUBBRO.