Give Your All To . . . ? . . . . [A Rel Forum Research thread--Open]

Bible, Vultus Christi, Quix's noggin ^ | 28 APR 2010; 30 APR 2010 | Jesus, Mark Kirby & Quix

[Quix]

GIVE IT ALL TO . . . ? . . . .

--A Research Thread--

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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. 10 May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us today the food we need,[a] 12 and forgive us our sins, as we have forgiven those who sin against us. 13 And don’t let us yield to temptation,[b] but rescue us from the evil one.[c] --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: Our Father Who is in heaven, hallowed (kept holy) be Your name. 10Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11Give us this day our daily bread. 12And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven ([e]left, remitted, and let go of the debts, and have [f]given up resentment against) our debtors. 13And lead (bring) us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14For if you forgive people their trespasses [their [g]reckless and willful sins, [h]leaving them, letting them go, and [i]giving up resentment], your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: Our Father in heaven, Reveal who you are. Set the world right; Do what's best— as above, so below. Keep us alive with three square meals. Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others. Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil. You're in charge! You can do anything you want! You're ablaze in beauty! Yes. Yes. Yes. 14-15"In prayer there is a connection between what God does and what you do. You can't get forgiveness from God, for instance, without also forgiving others. If you refuse to do your part, you cut yourself off from God's part. 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. --THE MESSAGE

Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, Mother of Perpetual Help, I turn with confidence to thy maternal Heart, and I renew my total and irrevocable consecration to thee. I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, and all that I have is thine. I give thee my past with its burdens. I give thee this present moment with its anxieties and fears. I give thee my future and all that it holds. There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, no place so secret, or so darkened by sin that thy presence and thy influence are not wholly and ardently desired there. I want to be completely transparent with thee, utterly simple, guileless, and childlike. Thou knowest, O Mother, all my preoccupations, all my intentions, and all those recommended to my prayer. Take them, I beseech thee, to thy Immaculate Heart and, as my Advocate, my all-powerful intercessor, and my Mediatrix, present them to thy Son. Seeing them presented by thee and held in thy maternal Heart, there is nothing that He will not do to give to each intention the one response worthy of the infinite mercy and love of His Sacred Heart. Praying in this way, I can be at rest, for thou art my Mother, and all that I entrust to thee will be, I am sure, received, and considered, and cared for with a Mother's love. Amen.

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[Quix]

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . .

this sounds, Dear Sister,

"Truly, to God be the glory, not man, never man."

like a contradiction to some of your assertions up-thread.

Or are you meaning it . . . uhhh . . .

'Truly, to God be the glory, not [a] man, never [any] man--though a special case was made for one woman.'

Is that your meaning? I'm really at a mystifying loss as to how to take the meaning of your words any more.

I'm sorry your working all this out with this Pentecostal is so difficult, annoying, offensive. I'd make it less so, if I could figure out a way to do that with Biblical integrity, accuracy, and personal straight-forwardness.

Alas, I just don't seem able, currently, to rise to that level of maturity or saintliness. Very sorry.

BTW, I would still appreciate your response to my post #1,692 to wit:

Sez you, dear brother in Christ!

AT post #1,483 you said:

BB:
But from whence did Quix derive this list of titles? Certainly not from Catholics, I daresay!

QX: About that you are exceedingly mistaken.

I cited the reference. I gave the page numbers and quotes from the book published by a well known and cherished, approved, sanctioned, lauded ?Roman? Catholic Order's publishing house. I gave the official Vatican affiliated institutional censor's and Cardinal Cushing's affirmations of the text.

If those are not from ?Roman? Catholics, nothing is.

Therefore, your:

And on what basis does he associate them with Mary? Catholic thought makes none of the associations that have been alleged from certain quarters round about here.

is also mistaken and wholesale mystifying on the face of it.

Frankly, I went to bed shocked and seriously grieved by your assertions. I still am. I find them exceedingly difficult to explain, If not now mystifying to understand with any confidence, at all.

BIG Sigh.

[betty boop]

Thank you for your kind words, dear Dan.

I'm praying for Abbie constantly. So are many other FReepers I know.

May God ever bless her, and you and your entire family; may the Holy Spirit be with you, and strengthen her, and you, body and soul.

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind affirmation.

LUB

[Mad Dawg]

You know good and well that the V Edifice doesn’t tolerate facts and logic . . .

Well, what's interesting here is that metmom did not understand the distinction between a valid argument based on a false premise and an invalid argument.

AND she argued and persists in arguing against the plain sense of Psalm 115:3.

It may be that you will characterize the realism and virtue-based ethics of the schoolmen as some Vatican fantasy.

But, strangely, the scholastic approach to the question "Can God do whatever he wants?" not only comports with the plain sense of scripture but also preserves and elucidates the concept of omnipotence.

That is, non-Catholics are telling me that despite the testimony of Ps 115:3, God is NOT omnipotent and there are things he is unable ("cannot") do, andthey are ridiculing me and complaining that my quotes from Scripture are unscriptural ! But I am almost alone in supporting the plain meaning of Scripture, in reconciling the text already cited with the sayings that God cannot lie or change.

YOUR side argues that a text is Scripture is just wrong. My side shows how it is right. Then your side says my side invents stuff.

And all along, your side claims "sola scriptura" and at the same time says a verse of Scripture is wrong!

Who is inventing here? Who is dodging the facts of what is in the Bible or the logic of an approach to metaphysics and ethics which comports with and reconciles the plain sense of Scripture.

In response to our doing what you say we don't do and accomplishing what you say cannot be accomplished, WHILE we prove more faithful to Scripture than your side, what we get it charges of ducking facts and logic and of making inventions and fantasies.

So here metmom makes, not once but twice, a vague charge about Vatican II -- a charge so vague and indefinite as to particulars that it cannot be defended against, and once again all we get is the noise about logic, facts, and fantasies.

So, what can I say? Enjoy the startling lack of insight evidenced by (a) disagreeing with a clear text from the Bible while (b) accusing the other side of not paying attention to the clear texts of the Bible.

"Our God is in heaven, whatever he wills to do, he does."

[wmfights]

Bowing down to a likeness that you take to be a god is a violation of commandment.

I agree with you on that.

Thank you

Yet, at the same time, Wm, I’ve been amused at Christmas time for it is “protestant icon hour”. They pull out the stops with “Nativity Scenes”. Large ones, small ones, plastic ones, carved ones, lighted ones, living ones, and fabulously arrranged ones.

I understand your "amusement". It's disconcerting that so many "Christians" put so much energy into Jesus' birthday but nowhere near as much into Resurrection Sunday.

I do note a big difference though. In the case of "protestant icon hour" I don't believe we have protestants bowing down and praying to these icons with the expectation that their prayers will be heard and given special treatment because they went through the icons. IOW, the protestants don't subscribe god like powers to their icons.

What if Catholics simply oooohhh and aaaahhh all year long instead of just at Christmas?

If the RC's were simply ooohhing and aaahhing it might be called gaudy, but it wouldn't be idolatry and heresy. However, a rudimentary examination of the Marian practices shows that's not the case.

[Quix]

I’m still fairly raw and punchy about some of all this.

I’ll try and get back to you with more sensible & thoughtful replies maybe tomorrow.

[editor-surveyor]

“Can they do something for us that God can’t?”

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God: - Judy my dear, this is the Lord speaking...

Judy: - Shushupa you mouth, I’ma talka to you momma!
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[wmfights]

That is not what I have tried to promote here — merely to raise a caution about judging the spiritual condition of other people.

An admirable point.

Matt 7:1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. (2)For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged...

If the lesson ended there you might be right, but it finishes with:

Matt. 7:6 Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine,...

[editor-surveyor]

“Mary is with God. God is with us.”

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Mary is with god in spirit, but her body is in the soil of the Earth. - She cannot hear a prayer, although perhaps God reveals some prayers to her.

I dearly hope that he keeps the embarrassing heresy of the Catholic prayers from her; they surely would cause her pain!
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[Dr. Eckleburg]

Great link, RNmom. I’m off to read it. Thanks.

[metmom]

Go to the Hebrew. It doesn’t say that God can do what ever He wants. It says that He does what pleases Him.

It is not in contradiction with the Scripture that says that God cannot lie or change.

http://bible.cc/psalms/115-3.htm

New International Version (©1984)
Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Our God is in the heavens, and he does as he wishes.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Our God is in heaven. He does whatever he wants.

King James Bible
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

American King James Version
But our God is in the heavens: he has done whatever he has pleased.

American Standard Version
But our God is in the heavens: He hath done whatsoever he pleased.

Bible in Basic English
But our God is in heaven: he has done whatever was pleasing to him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But our God is in heaven: he hath done all things whatsoever he would.

Darby Bible Translation
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased.

English Revised Version
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he pleased.

Webster’s Bible Translation
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatever he pleased.

World English Bible
But our God is in the heavens. He does whatever he pleases.

Young’s Literal Translation
And our God is in the heavens, All that He hath pleased He hath done.

http://biblos.com/psalms/115-3.htm

Hebrew Transliteration Strong’s English
ve·lo·hei·nu 430 our God

va·sha·ma·yim; 8064 the heavens

kol 3605 all manner

a·sher- 834 he

cha·fetz 2654 pleases

a·sah. 6213 does

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Thank you. He has already.

I pray the same for you.

"Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in his ways.

For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee." -- Psalms 128:1-2

[metmom]

Actually, the RCC teaches that Mary didn’t die but was what they call *assumed* up into heaven; like the Ascension but she was taken up unlike Jesus who took Himself up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assumption_of_Mary

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02006b.htm

Regarding the day, year, and manner of Our Lady’s death, nothing certain is known. The earliest known literary reference to the Assumption is found in the Greek work De Obitu S. Dominae. Catholic faith, however, has always derived our knowledge of the mystery from Apostolic Tradition. Epiphanius (d. 403) acknowledged that he knew nothing definite about it (Haer., lxxix, 11). The dates assigned for it vary between three and fifteen years after Christ’s Ascension. Two cities claim to be the place of her departure: Jerusalem and Ephesus. Common consent favours Jerusalem, where her tomb is shown; but some argue in favour of Ephesus. The first six centuries did not know of the tomb of Mary at Jerusalem.

The belief in the corporeal assumption of Mary is founded on the apocryphal treatise De Obitu S. Dominae, bearing the name of St. John, which belongs however to the fourth or fifth century. It is also found in the book De Transitu Virginis, falsely ascribed to St. Melito of Sardis, and in a spurious letter attributed to St. Denis the Areopagite. If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first. The sermons of St. Jerome and St. Augustine for this feast, however, are spurious. St. John of Damascus (P.G., I, 96) thus formulates the tradition of the Church of Jerusalem:

[Mad Dawg]

I dearly hope that he keeps the embarrassing heresy of the Catholic prayers from her; they surely would cause her pain!

I would be interested in hearing more of your thoughts concerning the blessed feeling pain and embarrassment.

I'm also interested in your suggestion that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who called himself 'the Truth', would hide the truth from the blessed and would not strengthen the blessed to bear the truth with equanimity.

[Mad Dawg]

Actually, the RCC teaches that Mary didn’t die but was what they call *assumed* up into heaven; like the Ascension but

was taken up unlike Jesus who took Himself up.

Good. The two additions I would make are (1) that it is not de fide (so I understand) to think she did not die. She could have been assumed after dying; (2)The assumption is, I think, best understood (whether or not one agrees with the dogma) in eschatological terms. That is, she is and enjoys what all the blessed will be and enjoy 'on that day.'

[Mad Dawg]

It doesn’t say that God can do what ever He wants. It says that He does what pleases Him.

Okay. So your contention is that God does whatever pleases Him but He can't do whatever pleases him. He does it, He just can't do it.

If that's what you want to argue, don't let me stand in your way.

[Quix]

THX THX

[HarleyD]

I am really sick and tired of trying to "build a bridge" between Pentacostals and Catholics. In the end, God still probably sees each as members of the One Faithful Body of Christ.

I haven't been around for a bit and forgive me for jumping in without reading all the various posts on this tread and understanding the context. However, this phrase did catch my attention that I think Christians should very seriously consider.

It is a grave mistake for people who say they believe in Christ to think they can hold just about any belief they want and that God will sort it all out in the end. It is our duty for us to get to know God. We are told this over and over in scripture and God has given us His Holy Spirit so that we may know Him. He has gone to great lengths to try to bridge the gulf that separates us and any failing in truly knowing God rest in us and our sinful selves. That includes giving up our personal beliefs of who we think God is and accepting who He reveals Himself to be in the Word of God. Like pilgrims we are climbing a mountain in trying to reach the top in understanding God. Christians who have ceased this climb need to examine themselves to see if they are in the faith.

God does not look upon "good intentions". He will not say, "Well just because the Pharisees and the Sadducee have a different outlook, that's OK." If people do not understand the nature and personality of God, or even have the desire to want to know who God really is, then they are blinded. They need to repent and ask God to reveal Himself to them. Waddling in personal beliefs is no better than looking at the golden calf of Aaron and believing that that statue represents the God of Israel.

God struck down the Israelites on several occasions for their failure to worship Him properly. And Christians are warned in several places about our attitude. God does not treat this thing so lightly as we might believe.

[MarkBsnr]

I post from the Gospels continually.

You appear to miss them continually.

"Be not afraid; only believe." -- Mark 5:36

You post this occasionally. I took you through a lesson in which I demonstrated that this passage does not mean what you indicate that it means. Shall I give you that lesson again? But your proofs are rarely Gospel - they are mostly Paul, OT and Calvinist documentation.

[Quix]

God struck down the Israelites on several occasions for their failure to worship Him properly. And Christians are warned in several places about our attitude. God does not treat this thing so lightly as we might believe.

= = =

Excellent points.

Thanks.