Posted on 04/30/2010 8:03:48 AM PDT by Quix
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7 “When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered merely by repeating their words again and again. 8 Don’t be like them, for your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him! 9 Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, --New Living Translation 7And when you pray, do not heap up phrases (multiply words, repeating the same ones over and over) as the Gentiles do, for they think they will be heard for their much speaking. [I Kings 18:25-29.] 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him. 9Pray, therefore, like this: 15But if you do not forgive others their trespasses [their [j]reckless and willful sins, [k]leaving them, letting them go, and [l]giving up resentment], neither will your Father forgive you your trespasses. --Amplified Pray with Simplicity 5"And when you come before God, don't turn that into a theatrical production either. All these people making a regular show out of their prayers, hoping for stardom! Do you think God sits in a box seat? 6"Here's what I want you to do: Find a quiet, secluded place so you won't be tempted to role-play before God. Just be there as simply and honestly as you can manage. The focus will shift from you to God, and you will begin to sense his grace. 7-13"The world is full of so-called prayer warriors who are prayer-ignorant. They're full of formulas and programs and advice, peddling techniques for getting what you want from God. Don't fall for that nonsense. This is your Father you are dealing with, and he knows better than you what you need. With a God like this loving you, you can pray very simply. Like this: 16-18"When you practice some appetite-denying discipline to better concentrate on God, don't make a production out of it. It might turn you into a small-time celebrity but it won't make you a saint. If you 'go into training' inwardly, act normal outwardly. Shampoo and comb your hair, brush your teeth, wash your face. God doesn't require attention-getting devices. He won't overlook what you are doing; he'll reward you well. |
Mark Kirby: O Mother of Good Counsel, I am all thine, Most Holy Mary, There is no part of my life that is not open to thee, I want to be completely transparent with thee, Praying in this way, I can be at rest, |
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LOL.
Quoting psalm 115 conflicts with scripture. O-o-o Kay!
Thanks for making it as clear as it needs to be that it's not what you say, it's that you're a Catholic while you say it.
I can quote Psalm 115:3 "Our God is in heaven, whatever He wishes to do He does," but because it's in Latin and posted by a Catholic, it conflicts with Scripture, even when it IS scripture!
EPIC FAIL!
In all seriosity-ness:To what exactly in the passage you quote do you object? I am fell so foul in papism that I am stymied trying to find out what’s wrong with it.
And you got your Scripture from the Catholic Church — translated into Greek by St. Jerome.
Just as the counter-dependent child shows his dependence by continual contrariness, so SOME (not all) Protestants see their primary task not obedience to the great commission but forever making clear that they are not Catholics.
Yes it is tiring. Satan does not like for us to have energy. So, we must turn again and again to Jesus, who is our life, and then, consoled and comforted, turn back to the task He gave us.
Hope is a virtue, not a feeling. I think we must ask Jesus to make us instruments of His peace.
I don't know the answer to that question in general, but in particular, when someone complains that an excerpt from the Psalms is contrary to Scripture, that right there is enough error to justify shaking the dust from one's feet and going elsewhere.
To paraphrase John 3:10, ‘You were a clergyman and do not know these things?’
There is no me in the Greek in verse 14. It is translated, "If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it."
That would seem to leave it open as to whom we could ask. If the only interpretation is that the Father only is proper, then I do not see how verse 14 is anything other than a useless repetition of verse 13. Of course many things are repeated in scripture, but when it is back to back, isn't it usually phrased a little differently to maybe make it more clear? I mean, here it really would seem to add nothing ("I will do what you ask", "You may ask and I will do"). If, however, Jesus was adding that it is also proper to ask Him directly, then verse 14 would have a real and clear purpose.
The import of the discussion is Jesus is our entre to the Father for the Father's glory and in verse 16 it is Christ who is praying for the sending of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, but I don't see how this changes what we are talking about. It wouldn't make sense for Jesus to pray to Himself, but perhaps for us it would be perfectly fine. Christ praying for the sending of the Spirit does not, imo, necessarily imply that it would be theoretically wrong for someone five minutes earlier to have prayed to Christ for the sending of the Spirit. Christ says both that He will pray AND elsewhere that He will send.
I was using the NIV, but I fully appreciate that many consider the KJV to be the most faithful translation. I'm not of a mind to argue against that. :) My question would remain then that what is the use of verse 14 in light of 13 IF the correct assumption is a reiteration of Father-only prayer?
I would only submit this to you: If we are free to pray any old way we want to, why the construct of the priesthood and it's ultimate culmination in Christ?
I suppose I don't see how praying "to" any of the three Persons of the Godhead in the name of Christ would cause any problems with the priesthood and it's ultimate culmination in Christ.
And just to be clear with everyone, I personally pray to the Father in the name of Christ. I do this for the many Biblical examples discussed, out of personal habit, and because I know there can be no superior way to pray. However, what I am suggesting is that if some Christian, for some reason, was so led to pray to Christ or Holy Spirit in the name of Christ that I do not think the prayer would be stamped "Return to sender" for an invalid address. :) Surely many well intentioned Christians who have not had the opportunity to study as we have made such prayers and I suggest they were not in vain.
WELL PUT.
THX.
i ASSUME
you have FELT hopeless?
I do ask Jesus such things.
AT post #1,483 you said:
But from whence did Quix derive this list of titles? Certainly not from Catholics, I daresay!
About that you are exceedingly mistaken.
I cited the reference. I gave the page numbers and quotes from the book published by a well known and cherished, approved, sanctioned, lauded ?Roman? Catholic Order's publishing house. I gave the official Vatican affiliated institutional censor's and Cardinal Cushing's affirmations of the text.
If those are not from ?Roman? Catholics, nothing is.
Therefore, your:
And on what basis does he associate them with Mary? Catholic thought makes none of the associations that have been alleged from certain quarters round about here.
is also mistaken and wholesale mystifying on the face of it.
Frankly, I went to bed shocked and seriously grieved by your assertions. I still am. I find them exceedingly difficult to explain.
BIG Sigh.
When and to whom did God first declare this???
Before Vatican II, the Church consistently taught that only Roman Catholics had a chance to be saved and attain Heaven. Followers of other Christian denominations and of other religions would be automatically routed to Hell for all eternity:
* Pope Innocent III (circa 1160 - 1216 CE) is considered “one of the greatest popes of the Middle Ages...” 1 At the Fourth Lateran Council (a.k.a. the General Council of Lateran, and the Great Council) he wrote:
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved.”
* Pope Boniface VIII (1235-1303 CE) promulgated a Papal Bull in 1302 CE titled Unam Sanctam (One Holy). He wrote, in part:
“Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Ephesians 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed....Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” 2
The last sentence in the original Latin reads: “Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronuntiamus omnino esse de necessitate salutis.” 3
* Pope Eugene IV, (1388-1447 CE) wrote a Papal bull in 1441 CE titled Cantate Domino. One paragraph reads:
“It [the Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart ‘into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” 4
It couldn't be more clear.
I'm no Catholic, but I've long seen the logic of that opinion. The resurrected Jesus is STILL the Son of Mary. The Bible assures us that the evidence of Jesus' time on earth is preserved in that resurrected body in that He showed the nailprints and scars. If Jesus remembers that, then He remembers His earthly mother.
It's mother's day this weekend, and we will extol moms in most pulpits from coast to coast. "Honor your father and your mother..." "We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is..."
But the real biblical question for me is this: do members of the heavenly host converse with Father/Son/HolySpirit?
I do not believe them to be omniscient in the way that God is, but I certainly can see them receiving info from the Lord to the effect that "Yo, Joe, your earthly wife asked me to remind you to pray for her."
Joe, not being omniscient would have little likelihood of knowing his wife's prayer, but no one says he cannot be informed of it.
Therefore, I see knowing all prayers to be a feat only accomplished by God.
Yet, we believe that a fallen angel "Goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour." And we believe that he responds to those who follow him....some in direct worship.
Since we're talking a different dimension, it is so hard to speak without direct revelation from God. Perhaps that spiritual dimension is so close that those saints can look over my shoulder and see what I'm typing. But, I'm certain God can.
Jesus Christ was very clear when he said "MY Church", why would you want to pluralize something that God clearly said was singular. Additionally, the Church does not teach that Orthodox or Protestants are outside salvation; Innocent III was very purposeful saying "Church of the faithful," our faith is in God.
As far as Unam Sanctum, are you suggesting that Jesus Christ was LYING when in Matthew 16:19?
Just quoting the popes.
I didn’t say it or make it up.
It jives with what I was taught growing up as a Catholic.
I didn’t say it or make it up.
Yes, and I was just demonstrating that what they said is true.
Thanks for this post :-)
No, Of course I’m not saying that Jesus lied.
However, there is more than one interpretation of that verse.
http://bible.cc/matthew/16-19.htm
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