Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[Judith Anne]

But then she lived a SINLESS LIFE ....she kept the whole law perfectly correct?? JUST LIKE JESUS

No. Not "JUST LIKE JESUS." Jesus Christ is wholly God and wholly human. Mary was simply wholly human. Jesus Christ was her Savior, Lord and King, just as He is our Savior, Lord and King. But Mary was, by Christ (by God) preserved free from all stain of sin, as a particular privilege to her, being the human vessel for Christ's birth as fully human (and fully Divine).

There are people in this world who insist that all be equal in virtue, that no one is better than they are, and who are happy to drag down every one to their level. The truth is, there are some who ARE better than others. Everyone is not equally beautiful, equally healthy, equally strong, equally virtuous, equally wealthy, or equally sinful.

Mary was preserved sinless. I wasn't. She bore Christ in her own flesh. I did not. She and I are both redeemed, but in different ways. That bothers some people, who insist that because Christ said, "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, sister, mother," that THEY are AS GOOD AS MARY. They aren't.

Everyone is not the same, like a bunch of sheep or ants, or cookies. Mary is special. She is the Queen Mother of the King of Kings. That is a wonderful thing, and her virtues are to be emulated. One of those virtues was humility. My acknowledgment that there are women more virtuous than I, more beautiful than I, kinder than I, richer than I -- but that I belong to Christ because He loves me enough to have died for my sins, no matter my station, that's my humility. I love Him. I love His mother. She is better than me by virtue of God's action. I don't quarrel with God.

Please.

[Judith Anne]

I was under the impression that the Catholic Church does in fact discourage Bible reading, telling Catholics that they really can’t understand it without direct instruction of the priests.

Of course, if that is true, then the priests would never want any common Catholic folks to really understand the Bible, lest their dependence upon the priests be weakened.

The Catholic Church does NOT discourage Bible reading. It was, in fact, reading the KJV version of the Bible that brought me to Christ and He to the Catholic Church. The liturgy of the word is part of every mass. Surely you know this. Your conjecture is false.

[NoGrayZone]

Genesis 6:1-8 - And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

I must continue further into my studies....I have not memorized all passages that have led me to that conclusion....I have just included one I remembered, for now.

[Cronos]

Let's make it clear The Church teaching is that the Mass is NOT a rer-crucifixion of Christ who does NOT suffer and die again the the Mass, it is the re-presentation of the sacrifice of Calvary yet is more than a memorial service. The separate consecration of the bread and of the wine symbolizes the separation of the body and blood of Christ and thus symbolizes his death upon the cross. The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the cross in the sense that it offers Jesus anew to God and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the cross, reeenacts it symbolically and mystically and applies the fruits of Christ's death upon the cross to individual human souls.

The Church specifically says that Christ does not die again -- his death is once for all. To claim that we say he dies again and again is a lie or (more likely for most) rumor not based on any fact

Hebrews 9 tells us about the Old Covenant in which the blood of animals was used in the purification of the tabernacle. Under the Old Law a repeated blood sacrifice was necessary for the remission of sins. under the Christian dispensation, Christ's blood is shed only once, but it is continually offered to the Father. This is possible due to HEb 13:8 "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever". What Jesus did in our past is present to God now and God can make the sacrifice of Calvary present to us at Mass "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes " (1 Cor. 11:26)

Jesus does not offer himself to God as a bloody, dying sacrifice in the Mass, but as a "living sacrifice" (Romans 12"1). Jesus, having shed his blood once and for all on the cross, now offers himself to God in a continual, unbloody manner as a holy, living sacrifice on our behalf.

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Note again -- not a "re-sacrifice". I would beg to offer that you have not been taught well enough during the first communion -- which puts the blame squarely on the teacher, not on you (lamentably, that is something that needs to be pushed on The Church -- debates with those outside the Church actually enable us to learn how true the Church is)

[MarkBsnr]

Clue: who are the sons of God? Who were the giants? What is the connection to wickedness?

[NoGrayZone]

"No. Not "JUST LIKE JESUS." Jesus Christ is wholly God and wholly human."

Then where is Jesus' glory of keeping His Father's commandments as a man?

Philippians 2:8-10 - And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Is God glorifying Himself here? Or His Son?

[Cronos]

Post the ENTIRE statement, this is not sola scriptura, sola interpretura.

That website says:

Roman Catholics are quick to say that the Eucharist is not a re-sacrifice of Christ. They want to make it clear that Christ was offered once for all and that the Mass is not a re-sacrifice but a "re-presentation" of the sacrifice. We certainly do not want to misrepresent Roman Catholic theology, but we must ask how it is possible for the Mass to not be a re-sacrifice of Christ when the Mass is called a divine sacrifice (CCC, 1068) So far corret, it IS a divine sacrifice -- that was the point of Calvary, but the article goes into conjecture following this in that is done over and over again. The sacrifice is not done over and over again -- the article misleads We are told that "the sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice"; (CCC, 1367); that it is an unbloody offering that is proptiatory, (CCC, 1367); that it can make reparation of sins, (CCC, 1414); and is to be considered a true and proper sacrifice (The Catholic Encyclopedia, topic: "Sacrifice of the Mass"). So far, good We must conclude that it is a sacrifice that occurs over and over again that's a wrong conclusion -- and one that is not logical. The first statement of it being the killing of Christ again and again is wrong, hence the entire corollary fails
and since it is said to be a true and proper sacrifice that is propitiatory, then logically it must be a re-sacrifice of Christ. If it is not, then how can it be called a sacrifice of Christ? Also, how could it be propitiatory if it is not a sacrifice of Christ since it is Christ's offering on the cross that is itself propitiatory? Again, all of the conclusions fail due to the incorrect first assumption. It's like stating 1+1 = 17 and then trying to derive calculus. The entire edifice of sola scriptura, sola interpretura fails to to

[NoGrayZone]

"Clue: who are the sons of God? Who were the giants? What is the connection to wickedness?"

You tell me. Perhaps that will jog my memory.

[daniel1212]

There seems to be a lack of understanding here. What you said is true, but Jesus being given lordship over creation, which is a functional position, does not mean He cannot be of the same Divine nature. In 1 Cor. 11:3 the male headship over the women is patterned after the hierarchical order btwn God and Christ, yet the man and the women share the same nature. While this does not mandate that functional distinctions btwn 2 parties require them both to be ontolgically equal, neither does it negate that, thus your argument fails.

What i established is that of both the Father and the Son receiving worship together, which is to be only given to God, and is nowhere shown to be given t anyone else but God, as are certain unique titles and attributes, which God does not give to angels, and would constitute blasphemy to give such to anyone but God or claim them for yourself. Which is why the Pharisees sought to kill Him, (Jn. 5:18; 19:7) These are well evidenced on the link i posted.

[Cronos]

"The Mass is the same sacrifice as that of the cross."

It's not a re-sacrifice. It IS the sacrifice that Christ did then in our past but to God who sees then-now-to be in one, this IS the same sacrifice.

Of course that was not the politically correct era when Muslims , Jews and PROTESTANTS can go to heaven.. That was the era when the church said what it meant and was not ashamed of its doctrine.. it did not hide behind a bevy of words

Now "Protestants" can be a very wide range of beliefs. Even Unitarians started off as Protestants offshoots, remember.

[NoGrayZone]

"What i established is that of both the Father and the Son receiving worship together, which is to be only given to God, and is nowhere shown to be given t anyone else but God,"

Correct....however, one cannot get to the Father except through the Son.

[Cronos]

And it’s all in Latin, just like when the Romans ruled. Creepy

Thank you 1000s for showing how silly the post that Eck posted IS -- the link makes up stories about the Church which are so blatantly illogically incorrect, it is funny.

[Natural Law]

"I was under the impression that the Catholic Church does in fact discourage Bible reading, telling Catholics that they really can’t understand it without direct instruction of the priests."

Then, again, you would be wrong. Catholics are taught the from the bible, are encouraged to read the bible, and there are three scriptural readings in every Mass. The catechism says:

God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living". If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."

III. THE HOLY SPIRIT, INTERPRETER OF SCRIPTURE

109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.

110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."

111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."

[boatbums]

I completetly agree that the saved will receive rewards and crowns based upon their works of faith in Christ. No scripture states that believers, children of god, will ever be judged according to our sins. Our sins are paid for in full by the blood of Jesus Christ and his resurrection is our assurance that the propitiation was complete and accepted by God. Paul said if Christ be not risen we are still in our sins. We are found “in” Christ not having our own righteousness but the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. When God sees us, he see the righteousness he gave us, not our sinfulness. That is why we can KNOW we have eternal life and why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ.

I did a little word study on rewards and crowns, please excuse a little commentary on my part to go with:

CROWNS
I Cor. 9:25 An incorruptible crown
Phil. 4:1 Paul spoke of those he brought to Christ were his crown. A “soul-winner’s” crown so to speak.
I Thess. 2:19 Souls were a crown of rejoicing
II Tim 4:8 Crown of righteousness
James 1:12 Crown of life
I Peter 5:4 Crown of glory
Rev. 2:10 Crown of life
Rev. 3:11 Crown not to be taken away
Rev. 4:4 All the saved have crowns of gold
Rev. 4:10-11 All the saved cast their crowns at the feet of Jesus because he is worthy to receive all power, glory and honor.

REWARDS
Matt. 5:12 Great is your reward in heaven
Matt. 6:1 A giver’s reward
Luke 6:23,35 Reward is great in heaven
I Cor. 3:14 Work done for Christ is rewarded
Col. 3:24 Reward of the inheritance
II John 1:8 Receive a full reward
Rev. 11:18 All in heaven are rewarded

[Natural Law]

"No, someone has to be a religionist with a system to protect, without dependence on the Holy Spirit, or a willingness to make “the Fathers” of higher autority than God the Holy Ghost to come up with that."

If that is what you heard about the Catholic Church someone lied to you.

[Quix]

Thanks. Very well put.

[Quix]

Does the church teach she is sinless or not?

BTW I do not much care if your catechism has the word in it, the question is , is that an attribute of God/Christ?

S: (n) faultlessness, impeccability (the quality of being without an error or fault)
S: (n) impeccability (the quality of being exempt from sin or incapable of sinning)

I would say that defines God, and lists as one of His Incommunicable” attributes

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INDEED.

[Natural Law]

"Is not sinlessness perfection?"

The Church teaches that God, of which Jesus is one third, is "Infinitely Perfect".

[NoGrayZone]

If the Father is the Son, why make such a claim that no one get's to Him, except through Him?

If I pray strictly to God, without mentioning the Son, I will not be heard....John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

[Cronos]

Well, at least we are not like Orthodox Presbyterians who have replaced the worship of Christ with the worship of Machen as god. That is blasphemy. Why does the OPC do that?