Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Mad Dawg]

I got me some ACOG sights on my AR, but it’s kinda hard to draw a bead looking through the deacons ....

LOL!

So some bozo got all bent out of shape and now trijicon is taking the bible citations off their sights.

You know, if some Buddhist rifle maker (oxymoron?) put citations of Sutras on their product, I’d consider it an expression of good will. But quote the Bible anywhere and instantly thousands of pairs of u-trow automatically tie themselves in knots.

This is one weird culture!

[Mad Dawg]

I’m on page 64 of the 234 page MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY.

Darn it. Now I'm going to have to read it to see if it gets MY Imprimatur (which is the onyl one that REALLY matters.) Who wrote it?

[Mad Dawg]

However, I DO want to say that the God who is able to blast through the concrete wall around my heart, can do wonderful things with individual Calvinists, very many of whom, despite our disagreements, long as much as we do to see His Face.

[Mad Dawg]

“Awake, O sleeper,
and arise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

If people still did tombstones, that's what I'd want on mine,along with "When I awake, I shall be satisfied, beholding his likeness."

[Quix]

My own personal sense . . .

1. Attributing [?emphatically?] to satan what is Holy Spirit’s work, doings.

2. Tenaciouisly persistently doing #1 [?&/or cursing Holy Spirit and/or His doings?] with bone marrow hostility toward God and Holy Spirit.

3. Hardened, seered conscience resulting in “guiltless” attitude—in terms of FEELINGS of guilt—about doing 1 & 2.

[Quix]

Certainly satan is also eager to convince folks that they have crossed that line . . . causing them to give up spiritually . . .

when they haven’t.

[Quix]

Actually, I think she had it exactly right. The [UNIVERSAL] Catholic Church, that is the church of all believers, knows as a whole that only Christ could keep the Law perfectly.

It is a subset of the Catholic Church, that subset being the Roman Catholic/Vatican associated et al Church, that denies this truth by proclaiming Mary as equal to Christ in that she was sinless and kept the Law perfectly.

INDEED.

Note to FK: if either of the two deserves the Capitalization, it is the true UNIVERSAL (CATHOLIC) CHURCH OF JESUS THE CHRIST MADE UP OF ALL BELIEVERS.

[Quix]

Whatever can you mean?

Some of us belong to the

Hallowed and Archaic UNRoyal Society of Dead Horse Beating Hobbyists

and go to great lengths to further our hobby . . . horse.

[Quix]

I still think that

God Almighty is going to have the last word on guns without the Bible verses vs guns with the Bible verses.

I believe that in situation after situation . . . many hapless unbelievers will find that guns without the Bible verses are NOT to be preferred for some very important survival related reasons.

God always has the last laugh.

[Quix]

John Ferraro

via Daughters of St Paul.

It was asserted on FR that the Imprimatur was Vatican or Papal—I forget which.

Yet the copyright page [I forget the formal term for that page]

1964 & 1981

says:

“Imprimatur: Richard Cardinal Cushing”

I wouldn’t know one from the other or either from Walt Disney’s . . . wellll maybe not that bad . . .

So far, I’d say some pages are filled with wonderful Biblical truths.

I don’t know which type of page is winning out, count-wise, yet.

And even a lot of the very wonderfully Biblical pages will have a beginning or ending with a horrific Marian thing disturbingly tacked onto it.

And some are filled with outrageous UnBiblical blasphemies that many Roman Catholics et al hereon would be cheering vigorously as right up their alley and an integral blessed, more or less ESSENTIAL part of their Christian life.

Your take on it would be interesting.

[Quix]

INDEED.

Also about the Calvinists who want also to SEE HIS FACE, FACE TO FACE.

[Natural Law]

"However, I DO want to say that the God who is able to blast through the concrete wall around my heart, can do wonderful things with individual Calvinists, very many of whom, despite our disagreements, long as much as we do to see His Face."

I did not make my statement out of scorn or disdain, but out of a sense of regret and compassion. I do believe that a Path for Salvation exists through the dogma of Protestantism and Calvinism because it is our hearts that will be judged, I just wish they chose a happier path.

[Mr Rogers]

“I do believe that a Path for Salvation exists through the dogma of Protestantism and Calvinism because it is our hearts that will be judged, I just wish they chose a happier path.”

In theory, my pastor is a Calvinist, who wanted Wayne Grudem’s Systematic Theology taught - and Grudem is a strict Calvinist.

Yesterday in the Sunday School, I had half the period to review the scriptural basis for Arminius, and the teacher took half to review the argument for Calvin. It wasn’t a debate, just a half hour each to present our sides.

Afterward, one of the men came up and pulled out 4 books on Systematic Theology, all of which indicate I’m a heretic. I pointed out that I had just reviewed a couple hundred verses, and he asked me to email him a copy of the original 500 I had culled for time.

Then we both went into the worship service, where the pastor preached on Judges 11. He took pains to point out the folks being destroyed had other options, which they didn’t take. He pointed out that they had the natural revelation, but had turned their backs on it and God had hardened their hearts - but that ‘hardening’ is more God casting them loose to follow their own desires. The conclusion was not to harden our hearts, but be tender to God’s leading, and to repent if you had never accepted Christ as Lord.

I told the guy with the books afterward, “He may BELIEVE like Calvin, but he just PREACHED like Arminius!” And, good news, the guy laughed and agreed. We can disagree without bitterness.

[RnMomof7]

Mark: Do you mean the Catholic Church?
Actually, I think she had it exactly right. The catholic church, that is the church of all believers, knows as a whole that only Christ could keep the Law perfectly. It is a subset of the catholic church, that subset being the Catholic Church, that denies this truth by proclaiming Mary as equal to Christ in that she was sinless and kept the Law perfectly.

Actually the Catholic church teaches only Christ could keep the whole law , then they go off and supersede their own doctrine with the sinlessness of Mary

578 Jesus, Israel's Messiah and therefore the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, was to fulfill the Law by keeping it in its all embracing detail - according to his own words, down to "the least of these commandments".330 He is in fact the only one who could keep it perfectly.331 On their own admission the Jews were never able to observe the Law in its entirety without violating the least of its precepts.332 This is why every year on the Day of Atonement the children of Israel ask God's forgiveness for their transgressions of the Law. The Law indeed makes up one inseparable whole, and St. James recalls, "Whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it."333

[NoGrayZone]

bookmark.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

And I join in your prayers for HarleyD’s health!

This situation was truly unique and can't be repeated.

The people below were physically hearing Jesus, but they could not spiritually hear Him. They did not have “ears to hear.” But His sheep do have "ears to hear."

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. – John 12:45-50

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? – Hebrews 10:26-29

The word “wilfully” in the passage from Hebrew 10:26 speaks loudly to me. For a person to be guilty of despite to the Spirit of grace, he must first of all know better and then willfully reject Him. Such a one would be rejecting the Spirit because the words of God are spirit and life.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

In other words, I believe this warning would apply to those who have “ears to hear.”

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:31-32

I suspect there may be here a doctrinal issue concerning irresistible grace. If so, I'll bow out of the sidebar. I just wanted to present the words of God as I - a Christian plain and simple - have received them.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[aruanan]

Thank you for the clear explanation. I’ve posted on this thread the comments by Barnes and Robertson’s Word Pictures, but neither got thru. Maybe your explanation will penetrate. The Greek text doesn’t support the idea that faith is a gift from God to us, but folks sure want to ‘have it their way’.

Same as for those who yearn after the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture to the point that they have to invent false distinctions (eg, "It's not the Second Coming because that's when he touches down. In the rapture, it's only an atmospheric-touching fly-by." "The rapture is the Blessed Hope. The second coming is the Glorious Appearing." "Everything Jesus said in Matthew 24 was for the Jews, not the Christians. None of the promises God made to the Jews applies to the church. So this is why what Paul says in I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4 about the appearing of Jesus in the sky, the sound of the trumpet, the resurrection of Christian dead, the transformation of the Christian living, and gathering of the believers to Jesus is a distinctly different event than what Jesus said in Matthew 24 about his appearing in the sky after the tribulation, the sound of the trumpet, and the gathering of the children of the kingdom to himself" etc. etc. etc.)

[Mad Dawg]

And people say Catholicism is complicated!

[stfassisi]

but that ‘hardening’ is more God casting them loose to follow their own desires.

Sounding like historical Catholic Apostolic teaching .

From Saint Justin Martyr....

But neither do we affirm that it is by fate that men do what they do, or suffer what they suffer, but that each man by free choice acts rightly or sins;....The Stoics, not observing this, maintained that all things take place according to the necessity of fate. But since God in the beginning made the race of angels and men with free-will, they will justly suffer in eternal fire the punishment of whatever sins they have committed. And this is the nature of all that is made, to be capable of vice and virtue. For neither would any of them be praiseworthy unless there were power to turn to both (virtue and vice). And this also is shown by those men everywhere who have made laws and philosophized according to right reason, by their prescribing to do some things and refrain from others. ...For if they say that human actions come to pass by fate, they will maintain either that God is nothing else than the things which are ever turning, and altering,... and to have looked on God Himself as emerging both in part and in whole in every wickedness; or that neither vice or virtue is anything; which is contrary to every sound idea, reason, and sense.-Justin Martyr, Second Apology- Chapter 7,

[Mad Dawg]

Thank you for this reference. Time to read Justin again.