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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; Mr Rogers; Dr. Eckleburg
Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!

And I join in your prayers for HarleyD’s health!

This situation was truly unique and can't be repeated.

The people below were physically hearing Jesus, but they could not spiritually hear Him. They did not have “ears to hear.” But His sheep do have "ears to hear."

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. – John 12:45-50

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? – Hebrews 10:26-29

The word “wilfully” in the passage from Hebrew 10:26 speaks loudly to me. For a person to be guilty of despite to the Spirit of grace, he must first of all know better and then willfully reject Him. Such a one would be rejecting the Spirit because the words of God are spirit and life.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

In other words, I believe this warning would apply to those who have “ears to hear.”

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:31-32

I suspect there may be here a doctrinal issue concerning irresistible grace. If so, I'll bow out of the sidebar. I just wanted to present the words of God as I - a Christian plain and simple - have received them.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

6,436 posted on 01/25/2010 9:58:02 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl

You know what is interesting is that Christ always calls them HIS sheep. MY sheep..that shows ownership before they hear His voice..

Sheep are the dumbest of animals, but one thing is they always know the voice of their shepherd.. just recently, somewhere in the mid east, a shepherd fell (or jumped) off a cliff and thousand of sheep jumped off after him and died too..

When a sheep falls down on his back, he can not get up himself..

So when Jesus told the disciples this they would have understood that the flock that follow His voice were already His..those that were not His would not.


6,557 posted on 01/26/2010 5:00:50 AM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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To: Alamo-Girl; HarleyD; wmfights; Mr Rogers; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; RnMomof7; Gamecock; Iscool; ..
But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. – John 12:45-50

In my effort to save POTS, this one is not so difficult. We can just say that those who "hear my words" but don't believe were just among the crowds that physically heard Him (and other non-believers to whom He spoke face to face), but were not among the elect as they never truly believed. They were not among the sheep given by the Father to Christ because none of those would be lost. However:

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? – Hebrews 10:26-29

The word “wilfully” in the passage from Hebrew 10:26 speaks loudly to me. For a person to be guilty of despite to the Spirit of grace, he must first of all know better and then willfully reject Him. Such a one would be rejecting the Spirit because the words of God are spirit and life.

As you indicate, this presents more of a problem. Hmmm. For more context, let's throw in:

Heb. 10:35-36 : 35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. 36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

To me, the presentation here is that of a choice, "do not choose to throw away your salvation which you already have by faith". So, I assume that these people really are the sheep. POTS is destroyed. However, we are faced with a huge problem in that God promises He will lose none of His sheep:

John 10:25-30 : 25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

Eph. 1:13-14 : 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

So, how do we put all this together? One way would be to say that the Hebrews verses are to encourage the correct attitude through an impossible example. It would be a way to say that even though God will protect you from losing your salvation, by no means rest on your laurels. Your attitude should always be toward Christ and loving and obeying Him. IOW, DON'T test God's promise to keep you in His hands.

In other words, I believe this warning would apply to those who have “ears to hear.”

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:31-32

I suspect there may be here a doctrinal issue concerning irresistible grace. If so, I'll bow out of the sidebar. I just wanted to present the words of God as I - a Christian plain and simple - have received them.

And thank you so much for doing so. Please don't ever bow out. I always want to hear what you think. :) Here the main doctrinal issue for me is saving POTS. I suppose I am more persuaded that when God says "no one" shall be snatched from His hands, He means "NO ONE", including us snatching ourselves out of His hands. I have never been able to justify that posited exception in my mind. And likewise I am persuaded that a seal is a seal and a guaranteed inheritance is a guaranteed inheritance. But, it's an interesting debate.

7,445 posted on 01/30/2010 2:21:58 PM PST by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Alamo-Girl
But what about the person who has “ears to hear” and hears the words of God (His sheep cannot resist hearing Him) - but then willfully rejects them?

Gods grace and so sweet that those who have been regenerated by His spirit will never resist His call...

Will we sin.. we still have a human nature and as Paul says we sometimes do what we hate.. but the point is we do hate it, we no longer love our sin.

7,470 posted on 01/30/2010 3:50:29 PM PST by RnMomof7 (Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me. Amen.)
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