Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Quix]

Thanks for your kind post.

I’m on page 64 of the 234 page MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY.

I have a handful of other books I’m reading currently.

I’ll put the Catechism in the slot the MYSTERIES has currently. It’s certainly a daunting task.

However, I pledge to read it as fair-mindedly as I read most any book. And, as fair-mindedly as I’d want those on your side to read something I suggested.

And, I’ll pray that The Lord God Almighty by His Spirit directs my understanding and my responses.

I understand what you’re saying about the footnotes.

However, it’s a bit daunting to think that I’ll get through the text itself before Israel attacks Iran or some other such chaos begins. LOL. Sigh.

THE MYSTERIES OF THE ROSARY is an interesting little book. There’s a fair amount of solid Scripture and Biblical truths therein.

Anyway—Cheers.

[aruanan]

HD “What you have steadfastly refused to answer is who gives you your belief? Where does your faith come from?”

What I do know is that the Calvinist idea that they are gifts given by God to the Elect is nowhere taught in scripture. Both belief and faith are repeatedly - in literally hundreds of verses - described as something men do, not receive.

The idea that faith is a gift comes from confusion between pronouns and the nouns they are linked with in several verses in the second chapter of Ephesians. The problem really arises because English words, unlike Greek, have no gender and because certain words that are singular in Greek have a translation in English that sound plural. Also, it doesn't help that some translations, like the NIV, add punctuation that reinforces the idea that faith is a gift even though it's unsupported by the text. I'll give the Greek and then the English. I'll make the nouns ("the riches" and "the gift," singular neuter) and the respective pronoun ("this," singular neuter) in question bold so it's obvious which goes with what. "Faith" (singular feminine, πιστεως) I'll italicize. (And the really sad thing is that most of the English translations miss out on reproducing some beautiful parallelism in the Greek.

4 ο δε θεος πλουσιος ων εν ελεει δια την πολλην αγαπην αυτου ην ηγαπησεν ημας
5 και οντας ημας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν συνεζωοποιησεν τω χριστω χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι
6 και συνηγειρεν και συνεκαθισεν εν τοις επουρανιοις εν χριστω ιησου
7 ινα ενδειξηται εν τοις αιωσιν τοις επερχομενοις το υπερβαλλον πλουτος της χαριτος αυτου εν χρηστοτητι εφ ημας εν χριστω ιησου
8 τη γαρ χαριτι εστε σεσωσμενοι δια πιστεως και τουτο ουκ εξ υμων θεου το δωρον
9 ουκ εξ εργων ινα μη τις καυχησηται
10 αυτου γαρ εσμεν ποιημα κτισθεντες εν χριστω ιησου επι εργοις αγαθοις οις προητοιμασεν ο θεος ινα εν αυτοις περιπατησωμεν

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The thing to note here is that the "that" that so many think refers to faith cannot because it is a neuter pronoun that refers back to the neuter noun "riches" and to that noun's apposition "gift," also singular neuter. It doesn't refer to "faith" because, if it did, it would have been feminine in gender.

A better way of translating this passage would be simply to repeat the noun to which the pronoun refers and to make sure the parenthetical comments appear as such both times.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ (by grace you are saved) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus so that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding wealth of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (for by grace are ye saved through faith). And that exceeding wealth, the gift of God, is not of yourselves. It is not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, in which God has before ordained that we should walk.

[Mr Rogers]

Thank you for the clear explanation. I’ve posted on this thread the comments by Barnes and Robertson’s Word Pictures, but neither got thru. Maybe your explanation will penetrate. The Greek text doesn’t support the idea that faith is a gift from God to us, but folks sure want to ‘have it their way’.

[Natural Law]

"The CCC is so full of the very stuff HarleyD says it so completely lacks that this has to be a joke."

Protestantism, particularly Calvinism, is a colorless, humorless belief system based upon the fear of the wrath of God, not a loving embodiment of the Beatitudes.

[Forest Keeper]

Only the scriptures contain the teaching of the apostles and they speak to us through , and that voice is louder and more perfect than any man made tradition !

AMEN! Great post, RnMom.

[Natural Law]

"I'd suggest you believe the scriptures instead of some goofy catechism."

If you read the Catechism you would know that it is a manifestation of the Word of God in exactly the same manner and Apostolic Tradition, by the same process guided by the same Holy Spirit, and the same organization that brought the compendium you call the bible. Only ignorance and hubris would characterize a document you have never read as "silly".

[Petronski]

God bless you Quix. “Fairmindedly” is appreciated, but ultimately not my concern.

The task before you is to read an 800-page encyclopedia of the Catholic faith.

One need not believe to understand.

Dominus vobiscum

[Quix]

Thx thx.

I was afrait it was going to be 2,000+ pages! LOL.

Actually, this copy is 688 pages then the indexes etc.

[Alamo-Girl]

Amen.

[Alamo-Girl]

I believe that IF all the -isms would BIBLICALLY FOCUS ON THAT ONE TRUTH [1 Corinthians 2:2] AND EXTREME PRIORITY, the petty differences that so many think are such priorities, would fade to black; to nothing. And the not so petty heresies would be trashed.

I very strongly agree, dear brother in Christ!

Thank you so much for all your encouragements!

[Quix]

Thank you so much for all YOUR encouragements!

Dear Sister in The Lord Jesus The Christ.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your testimony, dear brother in Christ!

Truly, sanctification is a walk.

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8:1

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

[Forest Keeper]

Start with the Old Testament and bring the concept forward.

Thanks, that's a good progression. It's seamless.

[Forest Keeper]

..... Those who spoke against the Holy Spirit were those who actually saw the Holy Spirit's divine power working unquestionably in and through Jesus but willfully refused to accept the implications and attributed it to Satan. It doesn't seem to me to be the type of thing that applies to believers (such as PotS) but unbelievers (TD).

That sounds very reasonable to me. It covers the scripture, and POTS, and Calvin by reconciling the knowledge/faith issue. This was industrial strength, in-your-face SPECIAL knowledge that could only be rejected by some kind of special hatred. This situation was truly unique and can't be repeated.

Another thing that caught my attention is this phrase: "the ONE unforgivable sin". If most of us believe in double predestination, and justification is by faith, then wouldn't we have to say that ALL of the sins of the reprobate are "unforgivable"?

I hope you're feeling better by now, Harley. If you're not by my next response dial 911. :)

[Forest Keeper]

John MacArthur gave 2 sermons about blaspheming the Holy Spirit, available free both in writing and mp3 for listening (click on download near the top of the page) here:

Thanks very much for those links, Mr. Rogers. I will take a look at those.

[Forest Keeper]

Perseverance of the saints is also addressed when Calvin highlights Augustine...

The definition which Augustine somewhere gives, - viz., that it is obstinate perverseness, with distrust of pardon, continued till death, - scarcely agrees with the words of Christ, that it shall not be forgiven in this world. For either this is said in vain, or it may be committed in this world. But if Augustine's definition is correct, the sin is not committed unless persisted in till death.

"...sin is not committed unless persisted till death."

Wow. What greater declaration of POTS?

That's pretty interesting. I guess I read this passage in a completely different way. (It's all Calvin's fault for not being clear of course. :)

I read this as Calvin disagreeing with Augustine. My paraphrase of Calvin would go something like this: "Augustine says that unforgivable sin is a sin that persists until death. That is clearly wrong because it disagrees with Christ who said that the unforgivable sin CAN be committed during life, and doesn't have to wait until death. But if Augustine is right, then the unforgivable sin cannot be committed during life because it requires death for it to become unforgivable. That contradicts Christ, so Augustine is wrong."

So, this is part of the reason why I thought Calvin might be ripping against POTS. But who knows. I struggle with Calvin's phrasing and sentence structure all the time. Same with Matthew Henry. :)

[Forest Keeper]

RnMom: We had this discussion earlier... no one can keep this law.. This is a summary of the ten commandments.. and even the catholic church admits only Christ could keep the law perfectly.

Mark: Do you mean the Catholic Church?

Actually, I think she had it exactly right. The catholic church, that is the church of all believers, knows as a whole that only Christ could keep the Law perfectly. It is a subset of the catholic church, that subset being the Catholic Church, that denies this truth by proclaiming Mary as equal to Christ in that she was sinless and kept the Law perfectly.

[Forest Keeper]

Yo. It's hard out here fo da hit man. But I just read that article about how trijicon puts citations of Bible verses on their sights. I checked my ACOG and, sho' 'nuff: John 8:12! Cool!

LOL! You should have seen my face when I went to my online acronym and abbreviation dictionary to find out what "ACOG" meant. Of the choices listed the only one that could have made sense was "Apostolic Church of God"! Then I Googled trijicon and went "Whew". :)

[Forest Keeper]

FK: What if it was God who told you that?

I think the answer is, He'd better have some really good ID and the message should be retransmitted to make sure there wasn't a garble.

Yeah, no argument from me at all.

Of course My glib take on ONE ASPECT of the OT is that it is God's pedagogy: "I will now clobber Egypt. DO I have your atTENtion? Hold your staff and watch this!" And then He says, "Now that I have your attention, you need to know that I love the widow, orphan, poor, soujourner within your gates," and so forth.

LOL! It's pretty funny when you put it that way. But I suppose part of what we are to take from that is just how serious God is when He says something. Nobody wanted God's wrath, etc. Do good or good-bye, Chicago style. I was just reading in Leviticus where "love your neighbor" is side by side with being put to death for having sex with all sorts of people and things. Holy - good. Sin - bad, beddy beddy bad.

[wolfcreek]

Does this mean ya’ll have finally beaten this horse to death? LOL!

Time to start a new?